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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#251

Post by freddyc »

Kluny wrote: post #17
rememberlenny wrote: post #4

This point is interesting: [3] We find that engineers often under-value startup success (growth rate, revenue) when looking for jobs, and instead place an emphasis on brand-recognition, or whether they find the subject area exciting. Now, I don't mean to judge anyone for this — working in an areas of passion may be great choice. But if your goal is to maximize your financial outcome, looking at startups more like an…

Investors diversify their portfolios by investing in a number of startups and also in more reliable investments like well-established companies. You can't treat a job that way - there's no way to diversify the hours of day into several different companies with different risk levels. What the author describes is gambling. You bet all your resources (time, in this case) on one horse and hope it pays off big. That's not…

I had a friend who moved from start-up to start-up every 12 months after his initial tranche of options vested. He knew how much cash he required to live (with a little buffer for emergencies) and then traded cash for more equity in his salary negotiations with a view to building a diversified portfolio via sweat equity. He did this for 5-6 years, and one of the companies has already exited with another looking likely within the next 12 months. He obviously left a lot of (potential) money on the table by walking away at the one year mark, but he figured having a handful of smaller bets was better than going all in on one company and it looks like that strategy is going to work out pretty well for him!

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#252

Post by timothycrosley »

logfromblammo wrote: post #138
timothycrosley wrote: post #29

The smartest thing would be to start in Bay Area, and then transfer to Seattle at the same pay rate.

I would encourage everyone considering Seattle to research the tectonic stresses in the Pacific northwest (US). I'll get you started: "Cascadia megathrust".

Yes because the bay area doesn't have earthquakes... Honestly, you are much less likely to die in Seattle's only real weather threat, then the myriad of unsafe conditions in other parts of the country.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#253

Post by bbcbasic »

jasonjei wrote: post #31

I do not understand the obsession the software industry has for locality. Wouldn't it make sense for people to work anywhere? Haven't Bay Area companies heard of something called the Internet? If you have to have people in the office to make sure they're working, you already have a fundamental hiring problem.

Today, the internet can't compete with face to face communication. Even with Skype etc. I think this is the reason rather than keeping tabs on the work you are doing. This may change in the future of course if we can get VR to a real level of fidelity.

> If you have to have people in the office to make sure they're working, you already have a fundamental hiring problem.

It is possible to be remote and have your screen recorded to make sure you are typing for 8 hours, vs. being local and just being trusted to get on with it.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#254

Post by TulliusCicero »

pdimitar wrote: post #244

> It’s easy to hear data and stories like these and conclude that programmers moving to the Bay Area are suckers. After all, salaries have not risen by 70% in the past four years. But what this analysis misses is the extent to which this place and time is exceptional. The author lost me right there, even though I did make an honest effort to read the article to the end. (1) There are plenty of "brain centers" in the…

> In fact it says a lot to me and many others how the Bay Area gets the most press coverage of being the "tech innovation center of the world". Center of what?

It's the center of successful consumer-focused tech companies. A huge percentage of the megahits of the last couple decades have come out of the bay area.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#255

Post by TulliusCicero »

superqd wrote: post #227
rconti wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not disputing your conclusions, but I wonder what the hell people do with 4200sqft houses. I grew up in a very normal 5 bedroom multi-level house, 4 person family. It was 2400sqft. So were everyone else's houses. My house in the valley is about half that size, for 2 of us. Given infinite money, sure I'd like a bigger house. 2k, maybe 2500. I just cannot fathom why anybody would even WANT 4k+. I hear of people living…

Personally, we wanted the neighborhood, and also both my wife and I grew up very poor (i.e., we'd never lived in a really nice house). So we bought a mid-size house in a really nice neighborhood (over bought a little). That's why I am personally very happy with downsizing. But not at the cost of paying 4x what I am paying now. But as already said by others, you fill the space and get used to it. There are times it's…

4200 sq ft. is mid-size to you?? Wow!

I lived in a 600 sq ft. mobile home in the bay area with my wife and son. It was a bit cramped but not too bad. Now we're in Munich in a place that's...maybe 900 sq ft.? And it feels like a pretty good size, just wish we had a garage. 4200 just blows my mind. To me, I think having that much space would feel like a burden.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#256

Post by dollaholla »

tom_b wrote: post #66

Interesting that Bay Area hackers make more than local hackers when they relocate outside the Bay Area. FTA: A 2015 report by Hired found that when engineers from the Bay Area relocate to other areas, they out-earn engineers on the local market. Experience in the Bay Area seems to advance careers. Engineers moving from San Francisco to Seattle make an average of $9,000 more than others who get offers in Seattle. This…

It's not a big mystery. They ask for higher salaries, because that's what they are used to and end up getting paid more. It's not because their skills are more valued.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#257

Post by evincarofautumn »

qntty wrote: post #126
harterrt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could also be an artifact of the metric. I call this the "Geico" fallacy. Geico advertises that "People who switch to Geico save 15% or more". Notice that people who would lose money by switching to Geico should rarely switch. Accordingly, this metric will usually be positive. Consider that people moving to a new city for a job may need more incentive to move.

This is really insightful. Does this fallacy have an well known name?

I think it’s attrition bias, a form of selection bias.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias#Attrition

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#258

Post by nostrademons »

mr_pink wrote: post #246
nostrademons wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually saved up $100K in about 18 months, working at a large Bay Area tech company and living in Mountain View. I don't feel I made significant compromises to do so, either: I had roommates for 6 of those 18 months but lived in a 1BR afterwards, I had friends (many of whom I still keep up with), I owned a car and got out on weekends. I did cook the majority of my (non-employer-provided) meals at home, and my frie…

Paycheck calculator shows me that $120K [1] in CA leaves you with $6,220 after-tax monthly income. If you really made about as much, and managed to save ~$5.5K a month, then you spent only ~$660 a month, which is just impossible, sorry. Even if you're sharing a 1BR with several roommates, which, by the way, is not really an option for many. [1] Googling "average software engineer salary california" shows figures rang…

It was 2009-2010, so rents were lower, but my paycheck was lower as well (I started at only $100K/year base, compared to the ... well, much higher amount a few years later). After taxes and 401k, I netted $5400/month. 18 months encompassed 2 bonus cycles, so about $40K of that was bonuses, after tax. My rent was $900/month with roommates, and then $1400/month in the 1BR, and total monthly expenditures were about $2K. I was packing away about $3.5K/month; 18 months of that is $63K, +$40K from bonuses = just over $100K.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#259

Post by TulliusCicero »

WhitneyLand wrote: post #216

Does this article have anything insightful? It's easier to compare against Seattle: The housing is still very expensive, and you get only half as many sunny days. Why not compare to someplace like Austin? Most people can afford a real house, it's very sunny, great grad school, great culture, great startup scene. The SV big company advantage is not true. Most of the same big tech companies have a presence in Texas. An…

Austin's tech scene is weaker than Seattle's, and it's missing certain amenities that strong programmers in the US seem to like, like decent transit (Seattle isn't great but it's decent), being in a politically progressive state, and having lots of interesting outdoors stuff nearby.

Also the weather between Austin and Seattle is basically a wash, while Austin is sunnier it also gets very hot in the summer.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#260

Post by sjbp »

qntty wrote: post #126
harterrt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This could also be an artifact of the metric. I call this the "Geico" fallacy. Geico advertises that "People who switch to Geico save 15% or more". Notice that people who would lose money by switching to Geico should rarely switch. Accordingly, this metric will usually be positive. Consider that people moving to a new city for a job may need more incentive to move.

This is really insightful. Does this fallacy have an well known name?

Self-selection bias : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias
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