Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? • Hacker News Board

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#111

Post by jaf656s » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:21 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #76

OmarIsmail wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single person does NOT need to spend 3600/month in SF. That's crazy. A studio/1 bedroom can be had for 2500. And if you're willing to compromise on location (i.e. "the ghetto") you can get under 2K. Families that need 2+ bedrooms and a good/safe neighbourhood are screwed though.

You don't have to live in San Francisco. There are plenty of nearby cities with cheaper rent.

Not sure why this was downvoted.. I live in Berkeley and a 2bdr here is cheaper than a studio in the city.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#112

Post by pmiller2 » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:22 PM UTC

_skel wrote: post #52

nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

> It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. I'm not sure what you think an average salary is. If you think an average engineer can save $50k cash per year out of his/her net income, you're way above the average I had in mind. Let's assume an average salary of $120k per year gross. That's about $6k per month net for a single person who takes the standa…

I disagree that $22K net is not enough to live on. It is if you go the multiple roommate/1+ hour commute (i.e. East Bay)/never go out lifestyle. It's not a ton of fun, but it's doable.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#113

Post by draw_down » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:22 PM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #108

Henchilada wrote: post #93

This whole dialogue shows a very laborer-centric view of the world. What is missing from this entire conversation is the concept of being an employer/founder or independent consultant. If you want to bootstrap a startup, the Bay Area cost basis is going to destroy your nest egg until you can raise capital. Also, this conversation implies that you are employed 100% of the time, ignoring any cases where you quit, are f…

Considering that we're posting on a platform owned by venture capitalists, I think the more labor-centered posts we get the better.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing that as a negative.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#114

Post by serge2k » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:22 PM UTC

harterrt wrote: post #58

ammon wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT I incorrectly multiplied the tax rate to the salary difference, and said that this was a 5$ difference. This is totally wrong (as multiple people point out below). I'll leave my original embarrassing comment as a cation to not write stupid things :) == I just added in a mention of the tax difference. But the numbers are 13.3% in CA vs 0% in WA. That's significant, for sure. But 13% tax on $33k is about $5k. I do…

Thanks for adding the note on the tax difference! That doesn't address my point though. If the salary difference of $33k is the difference between gross salary, that $33k is going to be taxed at the marginal tax rate. My guess at a marginal tax rate would be ~40%. Accordingly, that $33k becomes closer to $20k after tax. Edit: to clarify, consider a Seattle salary of $100k and a Bay Area salary of $133k. The take-home…

> My guess at a marginal tax rate would be ~40%.

Sounds high for Seattle.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#115

Post by jrm415 » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:24 PM UTC

wwweston wrote: post #102

jrm415 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you move to CA, you need to pay state tax on your entire earnings, not just your raise. 13.3% of 140k is more than 18k, which is certainly significant.

Wait -- is the assertion here that California state tax rates aren't marginal? Because I don't think that's true.

CA taxes are marginal. My math was overly simplistic, because I only wanted to illustrate that you needed to pay CA taxes on your full salary.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#116

Post by joshlittle » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:24 PM UTC

I always feel like these articles are one sided - jobs and money. Those things make life easier but ultimately are not the things that make life worth living. This article hits on none of the reasons I moved here after several prior extended stays in the City. For what I want out of life, it absolutely made sense for me to move here - even with only $2K in cash, no job, and no place to live at first.

I came here for the things you can't easily put a price on - like the weather, local arts, music, and culture. Also driving into the mountains, or down the coast of California. Chicago is no slouch for fun but cold days like this make me glad I'm not waiting for the 'L' outside anymore. SF weather is generally magical.

Being in a top US city still gets me direct, reasonably priced, and frequently scheduled nonstop flights to family/friends in places like Chicago, Cincinnati, Los Angeles, Seattle - not always attainable in some of these smaller tech hubs (like Portland, or Austin.)

When people move here, there is a constant worry about how much money they will make or what company they work for - I didn't sweat it.

Within a month after arriving, I landed a great career. I spent the last two years exploring other hobbies and interests, and nurturing healthy new friendships.

Biggest tip I can give - It's nice to get to know people who've been around here for a while, they've seen it all before. Show an interest in your local community. Volunteer your time but branch out of tech. Get to know people here in all walks of life; show compassion You just may be liked enough by some old school San Franciscans that refer you to one of their friends; who rent you their old place (with parking and views on Twin Peaks) for $1200. It worked for me.

San Francisco is not an expensive city because of tech alone, it's always been a bit on the expensive side; as there's no place in America like it.

Of course this is my experience. I merely bring it up just as a reminder that there's so many things to focus on when decide whether or not moving here is worth it. The questions that guided me in my decision to move here were:

What are my goals long-term? What made me decide to move here? What is my contribution to the local community and society - outside of working in tech? Will I ultimately grow as a person; both personally and professionally? Is there enough other activities around that will keep me from being bored that I'll enjoy?

My $.02.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#117

Post by sbov » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:24 PM UTC

twblalock wrote: post #76

OmarIsmail wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A single person does NOT need to spend 3600/month in SF. That's crazy. A studio/1 bedroom can be had for 2500. And if you're willing to compromise on location (i.e. "the ghetto") you can get under 2K. Families that need 2+ bedrooms and a good/safe neighbourhood are screwed though.

You don't have to live in San Francisco. There are plenty of nearby cities with cheaper rent.

Yeah, a lot of times people seem to talk past eachother because to them, SF = bay area. In reality it's a small portion of the population and even smaller portion of the land mass of the actual bay area.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#118

Post by joeax » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:26 PM UTC

jasonjei wrote: post #31

I do not understand the obsession the software industry has for locality. Wouldn't it make sense for people to work anywhere? Haven't Bay Area companies heard of something called the Internet? If you have to have people in the office to make sure they're working, you already have a fundamental hiring problem.

I'm a big proponent of remote working, but I can see how some early-stage startups need a lot of face to face interaction, not just with other devs but all the way up to the CEO.

But yeah, your everyday, run-of-the-mill corporate coding job can easily be done at home. The problem is a trust factor with these companies: they don't trust the tools that enable remote working as much as they don't trust their ability to manage their remote people.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#119

Post by bradlys » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:29 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #34

twblalock wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is absolutely true. Your car, clothing, computers and gadgets, and most of your groceries will be a lower percentage of your discretionary income in the Bay Area than in most other places. Your housing and gasoline will cost more, and maybe your car insurance. However, the caveat is that housing is so expensive here that it's difficult to save up for a down payment on any kind of housing on a single enginee…

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

Sorry, I live here. I have an average salary for my experience. I can barely save $20k/yr.

My rent+util is about $2000/month. I live in a very /cheap/ 1-bedroom with creaky carpet floors, no insulation, and near train tracks that's far outside SF. (Belmont)

Altogether I spend close to $4000/month if I don't do anything special. /Everything/ is more expensive in this region. Food is expensive for no apparent reason other than to gouge customers. ($6 for a few sticks of butter? When I was in Seattle, it was $2-3.) I eat less fruits here because the prices are high year round. My job doesn't provide lunches, so I have to eat out everyday I'm at work. I mean, even cars cost more here just on Craigslist. In the same way there's an Apple tax, there's definitely a Bay Area tax.

I cannot possibly save $50k/yr for a house. Oh and $150k/yr is not $110k/yr after taxes. It's more like $94k.

I'm saving maybe $20k/yr right now. Ain't even contributing to retirement. Just trying to save for who knows what until I can get a job that pays 50% more.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#120

Post by nkassis » Wed, Dec 14, 2016, 8:30 PM UTC

plandis wrote: post #72

This doesn't factor in stock compensation AFAIK. For instance, I started at Amazon at around $90k in salary plus signing bonus of $20k so like $110,000 my first year out of college back in 2013. I made about the same in 2014. In 2015 I got promoted to SDE2 and my salary is closer to $118,000. But additionally I also got like $60k in 2015 in stock and this year my stock compensation is just about $100,000. I'd imagine…

But there has also been an incredible growth in amazon stock value during that time. This isn't going to be typical of someone starting to work for Amazon today (or another tech company) as your stock grant was most likely calculated at a much lower stock price then it is now while theirs would be calculated on today prices and we don't know how the future will go. Experience definitively varies.