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Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

blog.triplebyte.com

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Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#61

Post by jrm415 »

ammon wrote: post #48
harterrt wrote: post #32

It looks like the salary differential of $33k listed in the article is gross earnings. After taxes this would just barely cover the rent differential of $1.5k/mo ($18k/year). Note that this is the best case scenario according to their estimates. What troubles me is the use of median rent to compare housing costs. As rent increases, renters are likely to downsize offsetting some of the rent increase. I'd be willing to…

EDIT I incorrectly multiplied the tax rate to the salary difference, and said that this was a 5$ difference. This is totally wrong (as multiple people point out below). I'll leave my original embarrassing comment as a cation to not write stupid things :) == I just added in a mention of the tax difference. But the numbers are 13.3% in CA vs 0% in WA. That's significant, for sure. But 13% tax on $33k is about $5k. I do…

If you move to CA, you need to pay state tax on your entire earnings, not just your raise. 13.3% of 140k is more than 18k, which is certainly significant.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#62

Post by stephencanon »

timothycrosley wrote: post #29

The smartest thing would be to start in Bay Area, and then transfer to Seattle at the same pay rate.

If you are going to transfer somewhere at the same pay rate, transfer somewhere cheaper and nicer than Seattle. Lots of options (I'm partial to northern New England, personally, as I like having proper winter).

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#63

Post by DarkTree »

jeroen94704 wrote: post #41

This article seems to assume you're single and not in a hurry to start a family. I'd be interested to read an article "Does it make sense for a programmer with a wife and kids to move to the bay area". I secretly suspect the answer will be "no", since no matter how you slice it, a 4-bedroom house in the Bay Area won't be reachable until you are well on your way to, say, 40 or so.

Yeah I agree. I am single, healthy, and car-less. I pay $1500 a month rent for a pretty nice place, and have a avg software engineer salary, and I feel very comfortable, even paying for a large student loan. The real kicker is that I was living in this same situation for $50k salary before it doubled, and still felt I had some disposable income that I could save up. However, I can't imagine still feeling comfortable having all of the expenses that come with a family. I think that's what triggers the threshold for that extreme cost of living in SF. But again, for a young person with a tech salary and the very minimum in financial obligations, I think living here is easily doable.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#64

Post by nostrademons »

_skel wrote: post #52
nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

> It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. I'm not sure what you think an average salary is. If you think an average engineer can save $50k cash per year out of his/her net income, you're way above the average I had in mind. Let's assume an average salary of $120k per year gross. That's about $6k per month net for a single person who takes the standa…

The article showed a BLS median salary of about $150K/year for San Jose, and TripleByte's data had it at about $140K/year for SF.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#65

Post by maqr »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #35
jasonjei wrote: post #31

I do not understand the obsession the software industry has for locality. Wouldn't it make sense for people to work anywhere? Haven't Bay Area companies heard of something called the Internet? If you have to have people in the office to make sure they're working, you already have a fundamental hiring problem.

> I do not understand the obsession the software industry has for locality. For many types of problems, collaborating in person works far better than collaborating online. Lower friction, easier to have a conversation, easier to sit around a computer and experiment, and generally easier to handle things in a few minutes that would take longer otherwise.

Yes, let's all keep believing that. If companies realized that all programmers can actually work decentralized, we might not be able to command a decent salary as it becomes a global race to the bottom...

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#66

Post by tom_b »

Interesting that Bay Area hackers make more than local hackers when they relocate outside the Bay Area.

FTA:

  A 2015 report by Hired found that when engineers from 
  the Bay Area relocate to other areas, they out-earn
  engineers on the local market. Experience in the Bay 
  Area seems to advance careers. Engineers moving from 
  San Francisco to Seattle make an average of $9,000 
  more than others who get offers in Seattle. This Bay 
  Area premium is even higher in other cities: $16,000 
  in Boston, $17,000 in Chicago, and $19,000 in San Diego.
[found slide at http://get.hired.com/rs/348-IPO-044/images/Hired-State-of-Sa...]

Bay Area hackers are more valued in different markets than local hackers. I would love to see the raw data for the "relocating" hackers and local hackers. Is it a question of applied experience opportunities in the Bay Area hackers? Is just startup afterglow? Are relocating hackers better than average pre-Bay Area experience to begin with and this shows up when they migrate away from the Bay Area?

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#67

Post by OmarIsmail »

st3v3r wrote: post #49
nostrademons wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Figure that $150K/year after taxes is about $110K/year, and live on $60K/year. That's eminently doable even in the Bay Area. The problem is that $100K is a very low estimate for a down payment in the Bay Area these days. Most people I know are getting parental help to put down $500K down, because with housing…

>It takes about 2 years to save up $100K on a typical Bay Area engineer's salary, if you're fiscally prudent. Read: Don't have a family and don't do anything special, like take vacations. Also, average rent is $3600/month. That's over $43k a year. That leaves $17k for everything else, following your plan.

A single person does NOT need to spend 3600/month in SF. That's crazy. A studio/1 bedroom can be had for 2500. And if you're willing to compromise on location (i.e. "the ghetto") you can get under 2K.

Families that need 2+ bedrooms and a good/safe neighbourhood are screwed though.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#68

Post by swhitt »

AceJohnny2 wrote: post #15
rememberlenny wrote: post #4

This point is interesting: [3] We find that engineers often under-value startup success (growth rate, revenue) when looking for jobs, and instead place an emphasis on brand-recognition, or whether they find the subject area exciting. Now, I don't mean to judge anyone for this — working in an areas of passion may be great choice. But if your goal is to maximize your financial outcome, looking at startups more like an…

> username: rememberlenny What about Lenny? You aren't referring to "Lennie" from Of Mice and Men, are you?

His real name is Leonard so probably not.

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#69

Post by ammon »

jrm415 wrote: post #61
ammon wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT I incorrectly multiplied the tax rate to the salary difference, and said that this was a 5$ difference. This is totally wrong (as multiple people point out below). I'll leave my original embarrassing comment as a cation to not write stupid things :) == I just added in a mention of the tax difference. But the numbers are 13.3% in CA vs 0% in WA. That's significant, for sure. But 13% tax on $33k is about $5k. I do…

If you move to CA, you need to pay state tax on your entire earnings, not just your raise. 13.3% of 140k is more than 18k, which is certainly significant.

You're totally correct and I am wrong :)

Re: Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area?

#70

Post by colechristensen »

tom_b wrote: post #66

Interesting that Bay Area hackers make more than local hackers when they relocate outside the Bay Area. FTA: A 2015 report by Hired found that when engineers from the Bay Area relocate to other areas, they out-earn engineers on the local market. Experience in the Bay Area seems to advance careers. Engineers moving from San Francisco to Seattle make an average of $9,000 more than others who get offers in Seattle. This…

It could be as simple as Bay Area hackers being accustomed to higher salaries and negotiating higher (or not accepting lower offers) even in places with cheaper living expenses.
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