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China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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331–340 of 372 posts

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Primary/secondary education in China is very, very cruel Could you elaborate? Based upon what I see here in Canada, chinese immigrants maniacally push their children to all functions that can be found around. And it's considered good when there're many chinese children in your kid's class.

Just to add an alternative viewpoint here. It was "cruel" retrospectively and perhaps from the point of American society. Yet it was not really "cruel" when I was "in it". It was not a burden entirely carried by individual students. The entire class was working hard. Everyone was more-or-less tired after class. Teachers and parents accommodated my needs and gave encouragement as long as I was striving to do well in s…

> Thus it might be ignoring the context ...

I agree to an extent, but ...

> it was not really "cruel" when I was "in it"

I can't speak about your particular experience, of course, but generally children tend to accept their experiences as the norm. They don't have other experiences, are naturally in a very subordinate position, and are powerless. They can't really deny or hate their parents: the child's actual survival, as well as their welfare and happiness, depends on their relationship with their parents. Consider how many adults won't challenge their bosses (the great majority); now imagine a child's powerlessness, lack of confidence, and even lack of understanding of their own situation matched up against the authority, capability, and power their parents. Even adults in such situations tend to accept their fate and deny the possibility of anything better.

I also disagree that cruelty is just a relative term. It is to some degree, but pain and suffering have absolute values. When you break your arm or your loved one dies, the suffering is essentially the same whether you are in New York or Shanghai.

I doubt you mean it this way, but claims that other cultures don't value life or suffering have been used as a justification of brutal treatment.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a book. There are of course extreme workloads from both the schools and the parents. But to me there is something worse - the public shaming culture. I live in the UK now. Something very odd to me at the beginning is that I can never know how good my kids are doing compare to their classmates. The teachers would politely refuse to answer such questions. And the 'parents meeting' is private to one pupil's…

In the US, it is the same. I had no idea how my son was doing other than his teacher was lying to me. At the beginning of the year, it is impossible to do better than the middle. Not sure if the reasoning was so the children can show improvement? I knew he was doing better than the middle but how well he was doing was a mystery.

Unfortunately you may be seeing the side effects of the recent rush to quantify teacher performance- in most states a teacher now must show a year's improvement for all of their students, no matter how high or low they are when they start the year. And since children tend to develop in fits and starts instead of a nice linear progression, you can imagine that the system may tend to be gamed.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, if you're sorta close in English, you can sort of get your point across, even if you mispronounce words, because the mispronounced word means no sense so you start thinking about a possible explanation. In Chinese, a different tone actually is a valid word with its own meaning, so it's a bit harder for you to get your point across.

I've met foreigners who have had TERRIBLE tones but still manage to get their point across in Mandarin because of context. Your explanation for why English works despite mispronunciation is the same reason why Chinese works: context. For example, let's assume we were talking about our families. You want to say: 我爱我妈 (wo ai wo ma) "I love my mother". But if you said 我爱我马 (wo ai wo ma) "I love my horse", I would assume…

Woman + Horse = Mother? That makes darn good sense, actually.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is a strange language, but I wouldn't say especially difficult. Chinese is much harder to learn because it's so inconsistent between what you're supposed to say and the way people actually talk. In addition to using tones that are very unfamiliar and then you also need to learn the written language which is very difficult and requires a Chinese-Chinese dictionary for strange words like manticore and sometimes…

English does have a great many more sounds than Chinese, and very complicated grammar relative to any Asian language. (The tones make up, to some degree, for the paucity of sounds in Chinese.) A native English speaker, I have always been perplexed by the tendency of foreigners to use "the" incorrectly. A space ship orbits "the Earth" but not "the Mars", for example. But then I tried to find a guide to using "the"...i…

For speakers of languages without articles, using articles is mostly without rhyme or reason.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The USA has labor laws, and they are enforced Some of them. Lots of programmers are misclassified as FLSA exempt when they don't meet the standards for such exemption, but because of lack of organization and because of the status signalling that goes with FLSA exemption, they rarely challenge this, so it's poorly enforced.

I've almost never seen a programmer in SV whose job duties and pay mean they fall under FLSA. What are you referring to? Maybe a student programmer, I guess.

Sorry, I meant the California equivalent (the salary threshold under the computer professions exemption under FLSA is stunningly low, less than $24K/yr; the state version of the exemption for computing professions has a floor close to $90K/yr.)

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#336

As a Chinese I would say that the points in this article, though true, are not among the driving reasons. If you ask me, I would present this list: 1. Practically, there are only 4-5 cities suitable for 'tech talents' in China. The properties prices in these cities are comparable to the ones in NY and SF while the salary isn't. BTW: you have very little chance to be able to get married without a property under your n…

I'm a Chinese and I moved to US 5 years ago. Some of these are not true at least when I left China (I still go back every year and don't feel these at all). >BTW: you have very little chance to be able to get married without a property under your name in China. This is exaggerated. I've only seen such thing on news or from rumors. But in real life, a lot of my friends, classmates and colleges (both male and female) g…

you have very little chance to be able to get married without a property under your name in China

With the skewed male:female ratio, that would seem to be the least of your worries http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/8451289.stm

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#337
post #201

The article doesn't mention that but another possible factor is that life is not that great over there either. If you are not Chinese, you'll always be a foreigner there, even if you spend ten years in the same city, so that makes it difficult to integrate. You'll also have to deal with the Chinese administration for the visa, residence permit, etc. which is quite a pain. It's definitely a great place to visit or eve…

Racial discrimination is completely legal in China. Why the hell would anyone want to move to a country where they can legally be discriminated against?

When you are discriminated in a positive way. White males are regarded as superior in the eyes of many Chinese.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for saying these! As a Chinese as well, I agrees with you with these facts, they makes China less favorable to many of us. For some of your points, I'd share some different interpretations. 1. Yes - Housing is a problem. I think it is a salary problem. As tech corps in US earns money from the whole world, most Chinese tech corps can only attract Chinese customers. So the value generated from a same piece of co…

> 4. ... limited educational resource and the amount of people who wants to use it Is this really the case? I can't imagine a country having to limit educating students because of lack of resources. I hope they're not doing it artificially just to have a gradient.

> I can't imagine a country having to limit educating students because of lack of resources. I hope they're not doing it artificially just to have a gradient

What I've heard about India is that there are a few (15, IIRC) prestigious Engineering colleges and everyone wants to go there. So high school students have to outdo each other to get a place, meaning a lot of study & completion. The gradient is not intentional

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a book. There are of course extreme workloads from both the schools and the parents. But to me there is something worse - the public shaming culture. I live in the UK now. Something very odd to me at the beginning is that I can never know how good my kids are doing compare to their classmates. The teachers would politely refuse to answer such questions. And the 'parents meeting' is private to one pupil's…

Yes. One can draw a direct line between shame-based cultures and an unwillingness to take risks for fear of failure. The most harmful outcome of this is lack of innovation.

> The most harmful outcome of this is lack of innovation.

Maybe not Silicon-Valley-type innovation, but there have been plenty of innovations out of China's very long history.

Even in more recent times, I remember reading an article about Chinese research into floor tiles that can identify people as they walk via weight and shear. This was 6-10 years ago, I don't know whatever happened to that project.

Edit: I will posit that the people who take risks in the Valley do so not because of 'culture', but because they are well-off and/or well-connected and can afford to fail in terms of time and money.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#340
As an American-born Chinese, the main reason my wife and I chose to move to China and raise our kids there is to ensure their self-esteem.

Perhaps it's different for West Coast Asians, but when I grew up in in the States, I went through a period of self-loathing due to my race. With no AA role models, it took a really long time for me to come to terms with who I am.

Add to that the constantly accepted jokes about Asians, and it really caused an inferiority complex growing up. Something that I don't see in native Asians/Chinese.

So when a Chinese company started to recruit me, I jumped at the chance.

Perhaps because I'm Chinese, already married, and I speak Mandarin, the only issue for me in that list is the pollution factor. Everything else isn't that big of a deal.

I also disagree with the Chinese tech industry is any more relation-oriented than the US tech industry. Just like how Asians can beat the "bamboo ceiling" by using soft skills and mingling with the executives, foreigners can as well in China.

I would also add that for hardware tech talent, there really is no better place than China. People lament the IP issue, but for a hardware startup, this openness is a blessing.

http://gizmodo.com/why-its-easier-to-innovate-in-china-than-...

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