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Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

kakoune.org

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Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#271

Post by sushisource »

farresito wrote: post #269
sushisource wrote: post #267

This might get lost in here, but one thing that I'm dissapointed by is I love this idea, it looks fantastic, and I'm a vim "user" that would love to switch. But I put user in quotes because really I use IntelliJ or VS or whatever, with the vim plugin, for the rich refactoring / autocomplete support which, for most languages, is awful to try to integrate with a command line editor like this. Anyone know if the author…

The problem, I think, is on Intellij's or VS' side rather than on Kakoune's; otherwise, we would already have an Intellij client based on neovim. I'm in a similar boat to you, but I don't think there is much hope unless those IDEs actually do something to make this viable.

Yeah, you're probably right. I was sort of implying "with the understanding it's unlikely any of the IDE makers are going to do this, it would be nice to have the common code separate so a plugin wrapper is easy".

Something along those lines.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#272

Post by pfranz »

tdb7893 wrote: post #141
midgetjones wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's totally worth it. For me, I learned vim & touch typing at the same time. Generally I learned while doing side projects, supplemented with general vim sessions (such as the built-in tutor, and http://vim-adventures.com/ ). Many find it easier to start off with GUI vim as your favourite keyboard shortcuts are still there, but I found that too much of a crutch. Once you commit a few standard sets of motions to musc…

Can you add code completion or basic static analysis to vim? I've found it fine for editing but it lacks the information of the IDEs that I generally use

I've had trouble with the completion plugins for Vim. There'd be a "completion engine" that needed a language-specific "plugin" and I had trouble getting those + dependencies working in various environments (or they'd suck down CPU resources). Maybe if I just set it up once in one place it'd work fine. It might just be me since the CPU resource suck bothers me in other IDEs like PyCharm.

I really like the out of the box completion vim has where it completes against words in files you have open. Most of the completion I need is long variable names or functions/modules and if it's not in the same file I'm editing I already had it open in another buffer.

That and a basic PEP8 linter work just as well for me as any of the major IDEs I've used.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#273

Post by Gorgor »

gbersac wrote: post #258
wtetzner wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't use either editor, but just out of curiosity, what functionality is in Sublime that Vim is missing? Multiple cursors? Certain plugins?

Mutli cursor. There is plugins which try to emulate it, but it either didn't work or was lacking a lot functionnality. Other things bothered me, but the lack of good multi cursor implementation was a reason to stop using vim by itself. Just can't live without it now.

I have trouble conceiving of a use case where macros or regex-replacement cannot do what multiple cursors do. Do you have one in mind?

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#274

Post by pfranz »

tomku wrote: post #94
ncd wrote: post #10

This looks awesome (although I think the name could use a little work). It also brings up a question I have for HN: Every few years, I make an attempt to learn to use one of the classic editors like vim or emacs, and inevitably give up after the enormous productivity drop I suffer when writing code. I just can't seem to pick up the muscle memory required to become fast with these tools, and the overwhelming array of…

If you want to board a train, you don't try to jump in through an open window while it's moving at full speed. Emacs and vim are very fast trains with very slow acceleration. You're going to spend days, possibly weeks, struggling to do things that were trivial in your old editor as you get up to speed. If you can't afford that during your productive coding hours, you'll need to set aside dedicated time to be producti…

I completely agree, but I do think there's value in immersion.

After learning the basics, maybe find a subset of tasks to use with your new editor. For example, continue using your IDE for day-to-day, but edit config files with the new editor. Then go from there.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#275

Post by cwbrandsma »

Steeeve wrote: post #116
ncd wrote: post #10

This looks awesome (although I think the name could use a little work). It also brings up a question I have for HN: Every few years, I make an attempt to learn to use one of the classic editors like vim or emacs, and inevitably give up after the enormous productivity drop I suffer when writing code. I just can't seem to pick up the muscle memory required to become fast with these tools, and the overwhelming array of…

> is it worth it? Absolutely! --- When I got back into emacs I dedicated two weeks to re-learn it after years of not using it. I watched/read a couple of tutorials for setting up a python development environment - which happened to be one of my drivers since I hadn't found a decent python editor. I read through the built in tutorial once, and referenced it a few times in the following days as I was editing. I had cod…

I bounce between Visual Studio+Resharper, IntelliJ, and XCode (the worse of the three by far). Unless I'm having to manipulate UI element on a wysiwyg editor...I really don't touch the mouse in any of those IDEs. For the most part, I don't need it (even with the piece of crap XCode).

But each of those editors requires time to really learn, just like vi and emacs (formerly I was proficient in them too). Many people look at Visual Studio for example, see the Solution Explorer and just go "well, that must be the only way to open a file"...um, no.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#276

Post by st3v3r »

wangchow wrote: post #245
greenspot wrote: post #18

If you are wondering why Kakoune and not Vim, the OP claims... (you find following passages later in his post and they don't reflect my opinion) > A design goal of Kakoune is to beat vim at its own game, while providing a cleaner editing model. > Kakoune manages to beat Vim at the keystroke count game in most cases, using much more idiomatic commands. > Kakoune provides an efficient code editing environment, both ver…

In this age we need to think about things like voice control and 3D manipulation of data-structures and a dynamic view of the code. We can truthfully keep designing 2D editors (and we will always most likely use them to some extent) but I believe it is more important to consider different UI paradigms altogether. For instance, what about editing a living code environment? Game development is very immersive: you can m…

Sounds interesting. When are you going to start on it?

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#277

Post by cabacon »

wangchow wrote: post #245
greenspot wrote: post #18

If you are wondering why Kakoune and not Vim, the OP claims... (you find following passages later in his post and they don't reflect my opinion) > A design goal of Kakoune is to beat vim at its own game, while providing a cleaner editing model. > Kakoune manages to beat Vim at the keystroke count game in most cases, using much more idiomatic commands. > Kakoune provides an efficient code editing environment, both ver…

In this age we need to think about things like voice control and 3D manipulation of data-structures and a dynamic view of the code. We can truthfully keep designing 2D editors (and we will always most likely use them to some extent) but I believe it is more important to consider different UI paradigms altogether. For instance, what about editing a living code environment? Game development is very immersive: you can m…

You might enjoy http://www.iquilezles.org/live/ where he live codes some ray-marching using some kind of opengl editor. It's not quite what you're talking about, since it's just running the opengl code, but you could imagine it going through some kind of compiler/visualizer pipeline like you're thinking about.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#278

Post by abeyer »

oblio wrote: post #143
falcolas wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have to switch out my teeth when eating vs drinking. But you do switch how your mouth is working when switching between eating and drinking. In one, you masticate and move food around your mouth before swallowing once (maybe twice), whereas the other involves directing fluids back to your throat which acts in a near-continuous swallowing action. > You have to remember so many key combinations and commands T…

He doesn't control his mouth when switching between eating and breathing, I'm pretty sure that it's part of the autonomic system. You kind of made his point since there's no way Vim actions actually become fully reflex actions, especially the powerful stuff that separates Vim from a good IDE, since the vast majority of those really complex actions will be done at best dozens of times per day (and I'm being generous h…

> there's no way Vim actions actually become fully reflex actions

You might be surprised. Maybe not quite the level of a true "reflex", but it can get close. I find I not infrequently get weird compile/test/spellcheck errors when I'm not using vim and go back to find a string of vi keystrokes in the middle of my document that I typed without consciously realizing.

Re: Why Kakoune – The quest for a better code editor

#280

Post by favadi »

notheguyouthink wrote: post #86
ncd wrote: post #10

This looks awesome (although I think the name could use a little work). It also brings up a question I have for HN: Every few years, I make an attempt to learn to use one of the classic editors like vim or emacs, and inevitably give up after the enormous productivity drop I suffer when writing code. I just can't seem to pick up the muscle memory required to become fast with these tools, and the overwhelming array of…

I know you're seeing a ton of "yes it's worth it" posts, but i just wanted to add a slightly different perspective. Yes, it's worth it even when you aren't an expert at Vim. I am constantly learning new Vim commands[1], and i feel i only know a tiny fraction of the vim editing language. Yet, i still love vim, and use it constantly, for everything. The approach i take, as to make it enjoyable and not a job, is: "is wh…

Should be using ace-jump instead of counting the lines.
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