Live data from Hacker News

Spaced repetition

gwern.net

61–70 of 118 posts

Re: Spaced repetition

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then what? You remember everything about your life - for what benefit/purpose/reason? Even if we could remember everything we don't have the time, attention, or brainpower to dutifully filter and process three hundred million seconds (~10-20 years) of memories before making a decision, every decision. You write down all your interesting thoughts and ideas - for who, for what? Other people have already a lifetime…

"And then what?" Nutritional deficiencies. Aging. Lack of sleep. A variety of diseases. Use of certain drugs (like marijuana). All of these have been documented to affect memory. Also, I think one's attitudes towards the past will affect one's memory of it. For example, I am very present- and future-oriented. I rarely dwell on the past or review my day (or my past life in general), I don't keep a journal. I also don'…

No, I meant more "why do you (parent poster) want to remember everything?". OK so hypothetical world where you remember everything ... then what? What's different, why do you want that? Humans don't have the brainpower to make use of memories of everything.

'Having loads of memories' is not exactly the same thing as 'learning more' or 'having clear focus on a goal', or 'intuition', or 'improved decision making', or 'being able to do more things', or 'knowledge', or 'wisdom' - and "I wish I remembered everything" sounds more on the lines of anxiety or hoarding, than a genuinely useful thing to desire.

And that wasn't said in the context of learning a subject, it was in the context of "remembering moment by moment thoughts" and "living well". Specifically, how do you live more-well by remembering what you thought about music one day four years ago when watering some house plants?

Re: Spaced repetition

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you taking any anti-anxiety medications like Clonazepam? Many medications have a negative effect on memory, but benzodiazepines are well known for this. First thing to check when you suspect memory issues are medications.

I'm on no prescriptions of any kind. I am not describing memory loss, but instead the amount of thoughts lost in "filler time". What were you thinking about between the parking lot and the front door? What did you think about while brushing your teeth? How did you decide what to eat today? A lot of mental decision making and "down time" thoughts never end up in short or long term memory at all.

Mindfulness meditation as described by Jon Kabat-Zinn might be helpful to you. I would describe it as learning to become more aware of yourself, including becoming more aware of your own thinking.

Most of us, even if we know that we have filler time (I call it autopilot), aren't aware of how often it occurs.

Be careful though, some of that filler time is a necessary part of memory consolidation and baking in new things we have learned. Eliminating it entirely would probably be counterproductive.

Just my speculation of course.

Re: Spaced repetition

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you taking any anti-anxiety medications like Clonazepam? Many medications have a negative effect on memory, but benzodiazepines are well known for this. First thing to check when you suspect memory issues are medications.

I'm on no prescriptions of any kind. I am not describing memory loss, but instead the amount of thoughts lost in "filler time". What were you thinking about between the parking lot and the front door? What did you think about while brushing your teeth? How did you decide what to eat today? A lot of mental decision making and "down time" thoughts never end up in short or long term memory at all.

[deleted]

Re: Spaced repetition

#64

Med student + developer here. As one that has to memorize insane quantities of information in a limited amount of time, I'll offer some thoughts on my experiences with various memorization strategies mentioned (or not mentioned) in the article. 1. Understanding the "big picture." The idea is, if you understand the mechanism underlying X, you can reason out Y. This works great for physiology-type where things work in…

Very interesting thoughts and my experience is very much the same! One question: do you still remember the chemical path today (vs other similar items)? My experience with loci is very positive but i agree it's time intensive. From what I've read practice makes it quicker, but it is actually this time spent and the deeper processing and linking with other information that occurs when you use loci or most other mnemon…

I don't remember much of it. I think it's because the PAO system was too complex. I can remember some of the images, but I can't remember what they stood for. I have been able to recall some abstract things (like where other pathways like glycogen storage intersect with glycolysis). What have you used loci for? I was thinking I might have better luck using loci for pharm stuff. But Sketchy Pharm exists, so why spend all that time when they'll create scenes for me?

Re: Spaced repetition

#65
post #5

This is the subject I tackled in grad school. It was super interesting, because many people still believe that memorizing stuff is best if you cram for an extended period of time. Showing them that just a few minutes of review at properly spaced intervals leads to better memorization floored most of the participants. My particular research was the quantify the effects of the variance in follow-up exposure times. I di…

can you compare this with memory palace and other, alternative techniques, such as using the information to be learned actively and immediately?

Re: Spaced repetition

#66
I've been using Anki to learn (English) words for a while now (I got tired of looking up words I come across in books and then not 'learning' them from that). I've noticed a few things:

* A short definition is harder to remember than a long, involved one. It feels like the short one doesn't give enough mental 'hooks' for connecting to other concepts.

* A word that sounds onomatopoeia-c is usually easy to remember -- a 'cosh' is a bludgeon, and I have no trouble remembering that because it sounds kinda like one - one-syllable, harsh, blunt

* Words that don't seem to have definitions related to their spelling are hard to remember -- I had the hardest time remembering the meaning of the word "prevaricate" - 'to speak evasively, skirting the truth', because 'pre' makes no sense in it and 'vari' is not a root I've heard before, and neither has anything to do with lying

* Learning the etymologies of complicated words helps a lot, especially if it fixes the previous problem -- after learning the root 'aestus' means fire/boiling, but came to refer to the tide as the 'boiling of the ocean', I can't forget that estuaries are tidal zones of water

* Learning a story behind a word makes it hard to forget -- for instance I remember the word 'boffin' (Britishism for 'nerd') because I remember how it was used positively to refer to the war-effort researchers in Britain in WWII

* Using the word in a reasonable sounding sentence (not an idiomatic usage, 'the one way the word is ever used') helps a lot -- for instance, find a way to use the word "mores" that isn't in the phrase "social mores" and it's going to stick a lot better

* Words that come packaged with connotations are easier to remember -- for instance, the word 'lucre' means money or profit, but knowing that it usually means 'dirty money', specifically, as in money obtained via crime / sordid means, makes it way easier to associate it with a specific concept

* Talking to someone else about a word I learned makes it many times easier to remember -- for instance I gushed to a friend about the word 'psithurism', which is the 'sound of rustling leaves', and can't seem to forget it now

* Using a word in conversation / my own writing makes it far easier to remember than any amount of studying it via flash cards.

Basically it feels like the actual way to really learn a word is to associate a big mental structure around it in my mind - to understand subtleties in the definition; to associate it with its parts and roots and history; to have a social memory of sharing the word with someone else; to have to do the mental calculations to use it in my own speech or writing and to decide that it's the best word for what I wanted to say; etc.

This is consist with my experiences learning math and physics - I can learn a subject if I see it as a big picture, a narrative I can re-develop on the fly, or as a package of tools that are motivated by a particular kind of problem. I can remember an equation if I associate the parts of it with complicated mental frameworks or detailed arguments. But reading it off the page a bunch of times gets me almost nothing.

Cramming for a test usually means stuffing the raw text of the material into your brain, because you don't have time to build the whole concept lattice around it. I think that's why it doesn't work for retention.

Re: Spaced repetition

#67
post #10
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What deck(s) do you use? I've been looking for a deck that ideally has one side where there is an image of the country, and I give it the name, and another where there is the name of the country and I click on it in an image, but it's hard to find such a deck.

TinyCards from DuoLingo has that feature.

.. and is an iOS only SRS card app.

https://tinycards.duolingo.com/

Re: Spaced repetition

#68
post #4

Spaced repetition is a wonderful tool. I came across it when I started learning languages and have over 5000 cards in my largest Anki deck for words and phrases. A lot of thought is put into how to use a learners time most effectively. The algorithm designers seem to want to optimize their software so that a student only sees a card they are likely to be on the verge of forgetting. Because of this, uses often fail wh…

My main problem with spaced repetition programs like Anki is getting the motivation to stick with them long-term. This also dovetails in with my problems with procrastination. I've never seen a good solution. Most of the proposed solutions boil down to "just do it". It doesn't work for me.

I feel a bit the same. What's your goal of learning with Anki?

Part of my other comment here 'then what?' also links to someone else's comment about Anki - it wouldn't let you skip 500 words of backlog until you'd reviewed them. And the FAQ used to say something like: "Sorry, but you skipped some time and you are now at risk of forgetting those 500 words. You need to review them, because otherwise what's the point in any of this?".

I'm starting to wonder if people ever really 'learn' things, and if it's more a case of 'use it or lose it' happening every moment. When you're not using it, it starts to fade - whatever it is. Native language included, all skills included. And the consequence of that is that all learning has to include some notion of using it in future, not just once but regularly - frequently, even.

If your goal is in any way "because I should" or "because I want to be a better person" or "because I want to know more", I'm not surprised it gives you little motivation. If your goal instead includes "I want to do X with the language or skill, on a regular basis":

- I want to study Language because I travel to Langland every two weeks for work, and desperately want to be able to talk to people without a translator: motivating.

- I want to study Language because I saw a holiday to Langland on offer and maybe I'll go there next year, and I don't really have anything else to do: not motivating.

then the strength of motivation depends[1] on the strength of desire you have to do a thing, combined with the amount of doing that thing you want to have in your future life. Most things we choose to learn about, we have no good plan to weave them into regular life, and so not a long term strong desire to learn about them, and so not that much motivation to stick past the novelty stage.

[1] speculative.

Re: Spaced repetition

#69
post #2

I find it very frustrating that spaced repetition is the best recourse we (humans) have to remember information. I am regularly concerned with the number of thoughts and interesting ideas I have each day, and don't manage to write down or otherwise preserve. I have begun recording some minor annotations and idle thoughts on paper a month ago and after reviewing them today, I am shocked at how many I simply do not rec…

I find it very frustrating that spaced repetition is the best recourse we (humans) have to remember information. I've worked on this for a while. I've written several different memory programs, for helping to review and memorize things. I have some thoughts that may help you feel better: In the end, spaced repetition is not what causes people to memorize things. You can review an object over and over and over......50…

Spaced repetition software is designed to maximise absolute throughput. That is, maximise the quantity items-remembered/year.

The way it does this is to open a firehose at your memory. If the information is simple and well presented, then ideally about 90-95% of it will stick.

If you want to retain 1000s of items (like a foreign language) and can accept some amount of loss, then spaced repetition is effective.

But it's not designed to increase the relative chance that any individual item will be remembered. If you want to learn a small number of items with 100% recall, then spaced repetition is a bad way of doing that.

https://www.supermemo.com/help/fi.htm

Re: Spaced repetition

#70
I believe SRS is overused. The spacing effect is, of course, real and quite important. However, it lends itself to decontextualizing what you're learning.

For example, foreign language vocabulary is best learned in context (ie., in sentences, within conversations). That's the only way to know how it's actually used. Otherwise, you're just learning a mapping between first and second languages.

There are other benefits to learning in context, as well. It's more fun, sustains long-term interest better, and these emotional benefits enhance memory as well.

Most interestingly, there are efficiencies to learning in context. For example, one can learn two new words in one sentence.

For all these reasons, I believe it's quite unfortunate that the first language learning tool everyone grabs is some kind of SRS flashcard system. And similar arguments apply in other domains.

Post reply on HN