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Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

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Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#141

I'm trying to figure out how realistic the mentioned concept of a "window of comprehension" actually is. This [paper? article? post?] only has one external reference - to another document from the same group[1]. That short document, in turn, makes unsupported claims that "Studies have shown that there is a “window of comprehension” of about 30 IQ points." A quick Google search didn't provide anything further in suppo…

The footnote in the post also references this paper for the claim- Intelligence and personal influence in groups: Four nonlinear models. Simonton, Dean K. Psychological Review, Vol 92(4), Oct 1985, 532-547 http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1986-14442-001

The paper is behind a paywall, but the abstract makes me wonder about this reference:

"Describes 4 progressive models that provide a conceptual basis for a curvilinear relation between intelligence and an individual's influence over other group members.

"Model 1, the intellectual superiority model, by assuming that influence is a function of percentile placement in intelligence, predicts that beyond an IQ of about 120 intelligence bears a negligible connection with influence.

"Model 2, the comprehension factor, adds the consideration of the degree of comprehension by potential followers, yielding a nonmonotonic function with a predicted peak IQ of about 108, approximately 0.5 standard deviations (SD) above the mean.

"Model 3 incorporates the criticism factor that acknowledges a group member's vulnerability to intellectual superiors, and thereby predicts a 2nd nonmonotonic function with an optimal IQ of about 119 (or 1.2 SD above the mean).

"Model 4, the intellectual stratification model, expands on the fact that the mean group IQ varies across different groups and, consequently, predicts a high correlation between the group mean IQ and the IQ of its most influential member, with a leader–follower gap of between 8 and 20 points, depending on the submodel.

"It is surmised that other factors besides intelligence must participate in the determination of who becomes the leader of a group. Even if intelligence is not the exclusive determinant, the models strongly imply that published validity coefficients are biased downward."

I don't see any evidence for the existence (beyond the assumptions of "a model") of a "window".

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#142
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds sort of average or even below. The Elks club probably looks like that. For the top 2% intelligent people in the world, that counts as non-achieving. Working in a bookstore or running a gas station is not what you'd expect from geniuses.

Median income in the US is not quite $52,000, so Mensa is somewhat above average.

That's the median household income; i.e. two incomes. The median personal income is more like $30,000.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#143
Was in the 99.9 percentile as a child and enjoyed gifted classes until high school where I was exceptionally bored and hardly applied myself. I ended up at a lower-ranked state university where I am able to try a little harder (thanks STEM), though it still doesn't feel rewarding being so far ahead of your classmates. Fortunately, my campus life is much more social than my more ambitious hs friends' campuses, although I do often feel intellectually alienated.

I really have to thank HN for providing a stimulating community. The high-quality resources and discussions here have made my life much more pleasant; as a community you've improved my outlook drastically. Thanks. (Do any of you relate? If you have any advice, let me know!)

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#145
I don't agree with his approach for a few reasons:

1) The 145 cutoff seems arbitrary. A kid at 135 doesn't get help? Plus constantly speaking about a number feels a little uncomfortable on the side of elitism.

2) Poverty is not mentioned as a problem to address. Roughly there are 40,000 people in the US this smart - living below the poverty line. Can you imagine the boost if they all hit potential?

3) And crime? We've got thousands of criminals with an IQ >= 145. And as De Niro said, they're not doin' thrill-seeker liquor store holdups with a "Born to Lose" tattoo on their chest.

4) All the assumptions could be wrong. I was in this group, and barely made it out of high school, failed out of college a couple of times. But the problem wasn't school, my teachers were mostly nice. I had learned poor homework discipline combined with having a severe fear of failure.

Point is when people don't meet potential, there are a dizzying number of reasons, each with their own twists. How do you know which?

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#146
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have known/worked with a few people who, in confidence, expressed something similar to what you just said, about having to "dumb everything down" for everyone around them. They were bright, of course, I wouldn't quibble with that, but they were also really lousy communicators. It wasn't so much that everyone around them was just a dum-dum, but that they weren't very good at explaining things. They seemed to misattr…

Sometimes that is certainly part of it. Do you go out of your way to explain calculus or particle physics to children? Or do you simply not bother? When a person has spent their entire life trying to communicate whatever they were excited about to people who are only interested in the fad du jour, they don't develop the skills to communicate well once they do find people bright enough to understand. For example, go w…

"Cal Poly " - as a Cal Poly alum this wasn't really my experience. Of course, with thousands of people in the incoming class, experiences will vary. Most of my social connections were through choir.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwaway for obvious reasons. I do not mean this comment as a brag. Far from it. I am one of these people - I tested with an incredibly high IQ (nearly 200 at the time, though I know that fades). I graduated with a 4.2 GPA, and a 3.9 average (because on semester I chose to 'punish' my mother who was taking credit for my high grades, and got a D just to prove it) I have a very hard time with life in general. People b…

Having an extraordinary amount of intelligence in a world full of people who don't can be extremely challenging and distressing. I'd even go so far as to call it a disability. It's very hard to understand where people are coming from, it's hard to phrase things in a way that makes you relatable and understood. It complicates a lot of things if you haven't made a deliberate effort to practice fitting in . It's especia…

I'm not exceptionally bright but I have an excellent memory and an endless fascination with..well everything.

So I've read books on dozens of random topics, I've learnt to keep my mouth shut, people don't like that I know all that stuff they see it as threatening to their own self-worth.

My previous GF was a physio and mentioned she was writing a training course on compartment syndrome, she was astounded that I knew what that was and responded with "Why would you need to know about that you just program computers?" as though there was something intrinsically wrong with been interested in things, we broke up soon after because "We are too different in outlook" which was fine.

Current GF is a Hungarian (I mention this because she has commented several times that there is a fundamental cultural difference in how my culture (England) and hers approach education) with two degrees and working on her third in shipping, she has pretty much exactly the same outlook on life as me and her pile of books next to the bed is as varied as mine, She also knows way more about lots of things than me which is frigging awesome.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#148
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Median income in the US is not quite $52,000, so Mensa is somewhat above average.

That's the median household income; i.e. two incomes. The median personal income is more like $30,000.

Whoopsie. Thanks for pointing that out.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#149
post #82

Nobody mentioned Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD)?

I was surprised too, especially considering how hard it is to discern ASD symptoms caused by high IQ from high IQ caused by ASD. I fall in the middle of that Venn diagram, and unless there's some sort of miraculous scientific breakthrough in that area, I doubt I'll ever know for sure.

Re: Where Do the Failed 0.1% Go? (2015) [pdf]

#150
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have known/worked with a few people who, in confidence, expressed something similar to what you just said, about having to "dumb everything down" for everyone around them. They were bright, of course, I wouldn't quibble with that, but they were also really lousy communicators. It wasn't so much that everyone around them was just a dum-dum, but that they weren't very good at explaining things. They seemed to misattr…

Sometimes that is certainly part of it. Do you go out of your way to explain calculus or particle physics to children? Or do you simply not bother? When a person has spent their entire life trying to communicate whatever they were excited about to people who are only interested in the fad du jour, they don't develop the skills to communicate well once they do find people bright enough to understand. For example, go w…

I agree with you that those who don't talk on topics outside of pop culture and other shallow topics fail to develop the skills to listen to and understand deeper speech.

But also those who spend too much time thinking to themselves without taking the time to slow down and verbalize those thoughts to others form thought patterns that make no sense to anyone except that person. I think it is a common trait of high IQ people to be able to think far, far faster than your own internal verbal monologue can follow. When I'm solving a computer problem in my mind I'm not thinking in an inner monologue voice. My thought process is bouncing through voiceless mental shortcuts (macros if you will) that only make sense to me, and any attempt to keep up with a verbal explanation just wouldn't work. Other people don't have the same macros you have in your head.

But when in a work setting I am pairing with a fellow engineer (one of the duties of my team lead role) rather than just working alone I am force to slow down and verbalize my thoughts so they can follow and understand. This can be very annoying on a surface level, but also enlightening for my own self. When I look at a problem and within seconds know the answer there are two things I could do: just tell them how to fix it, or slow down and force myself to explain in more detail to fix it and how I came to that conclusion. The latter approach is not a chore for me, but a puzzle actually, and I get a great feeling of accomplishment from being able to verbalize and explain my inner thought process to someone who isn't in my own head.

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