Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Developers’ side projects

joelonsoftware.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

291–300 of 411 posts

Re: Developers’ side projects

#291

Post by chrisan »

ImTalking wrote: post #89
alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? I had exactly that thing. I was being bought-out and a small client decided (against the contract that they had signed) that the changes we had made to our mortgage broker commissio…

> And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then?

How does this work?

I always hear the "sue you until you run out of money" type of bullying. Why do you need to pay lots of money for a lawyer if you are in the right?

* I worked on my project at night: here is my git log

* I worked on my personal laptop

* Your business is automated cars and my side project is a T shirt sale website

Re: Developers’ side projects

#292

Post by x3al »

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.

In some countries, it's quite different. In Russia, you own anything you made as long as

* you don't touch it while you're on duty

* you don't use the employer's equipment

Obviously, you still can't use any information classified as 'trade secrets' at your current job because it's covered under another law.

You can even work in a directly competing company (or start one) WHILE being employed because job contract can't legally regulate your off-duty time and you can have unlimited number of side-jobs, as long as it's under 20-hours-a-week, in addition to your current full-time job. You don't even have to notify your full-time employer about it. The 'non compete clause' doesn't work. And your full-time employer can't even fire you (legally) just because you work in/own a competing company, as long as you follow all the regulations.

Even the 'I don’t just want to buy your 9:00-5:00 inventions. I want them all' in the job contract can't work if I understand the Russian laws correctly.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#293

Post by klausjensen »

Does NOLO nontract in

    "...this particular clause is built into the standard Nolo contract and most..."
...refer to the website nolo.com (which seems to be about legal stuff like contracts), or is it an acronym for something else?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#294

Post by spacelizard »

zodiac wrote: post #287
sgentle wrote: post #189

I find this mindset totally disgusting, but I'm glad it's been summed up in such a concise way. > Being an employee of a high tech company whose product is intellectual means that you have decided that you want to sell your intellectual output, and maybe that’s OK, and maybe it’s not, but it’s a free choice. Let's clarify that phrase, "sell your intellectual output". Keep in mind that earlier in the article we discov…

What is the alternative though? Through the article Joel gave reasons as to why those two limits can't be placed (even if the company was nice and wanted to)

I can think of a few:

- Have the employee agree to grant a royalty-free license to all relevant inventions made in the appropriate time period

- Have the employee forfeit all inventions in the event they initiate litigation

- Or better, sign a mutual patent disarmament clause (probably my favorite option)

Going back to the core of the issue though, I would not trust investors who insist on appropriating the rights to any and all inventions they can. The article tries to frame this as a legal protection strategy, but they don't need ownership to do this. The only reason they insist on it is to try and pressure the founders into squeezing maximum value from employees while giving back as little as they can in return. Unfortunately this behavior is quite widespread.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#296

Post by forgetsusername »

derekp7 wrote: post #199
kasey_junk wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the state, but many assume you are competent to negotiate these issues before accepting employment.

Right, but what I'm talking about is a case where they fail to give that form to you until after your start date (and of course, after you've left your previous job). So they have the advantage -- either you sign the form, or you get fired on your first day of work. Too bad that most states won't consider this "signing under duress".

>either you sign the form, or you get fired on your first day of work.

Why would any company go through the legal and HR hassle to do this? And if they did, why would you want to work for them? Refuse to sign and let their true colours be revealed.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#297

Post by Asooka »

st3v3r wrote: post #45

I have to say, I'm really, really sick of the entitled mentality that companies take towards those that actually do the work keeping their business afloat.

It's not an entitled mentality per se, it's just that a company is a profit-maximising entity a-la a hypothetical paperclip-producing AI that eventually turns the entire Earth into paperclips through no ill intent.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#298

Post by bonoboTP »

chrisan wrote: post #291
ImTalking wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? I had exactly that thing. I was being bought-out and a small client decided (against the contract that they had signed) that the changes we had made to our mortgage broker commissio…

> And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? How does this work? I always hear the "sue you until you run out of money" type of bullying. Why do you need to pay lots of money for a lawyer if you are in the right? * I worked on my project at night: here is my git log * I worked on my personal laptop * Your business is automated cars and my side project is a T shirt sale website

Are you not American? It seems like legal costs in the US are sky high and people are constantly afraid of getting sued. I think it's somewhat better in mainland Europe, at least I don't see such anxiety over getting sued or so many threats of suing someone.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#299

Post by Lewton »

chrisan wrote: post #291
ImTalking wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? I had exactly that thing. I was being bought-out and a small client decided (against the contract that they had signed) that the changes we had made to our mortgage broker commissio…

> And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? How does this work? I always hear the "sue you until you run out of money" type of bullying. Why do you need to pay lots of money for a lawyer if you are in the right? * I worked on my project at night: here is my git log * I worked on my personal laptop * Your business is automated cars and my side project is a T shirt sale website

This kind of naïveté about the legal system is dangerous. I know someone who spent 4 years of his life in court in a case where he was obviously in the right But every time he won, it was escalated to a higher court and it ended up costing him several magnitudes more than the sum the case was about ($10k, yes, seriously) Just the opportunity cost lost due to spending 4 years in litigation is insane in itself

This was in Denmark, not the us. But if someone has it out for you, in any court system, they can make your life hell

And the Danish system is in many ways a lot saner than the us one anyway

Re: Developers’ side projects

#300

Post by chrisan »

bonoboTP wrote: post #298
chrisan wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then? How does this work? I always hear the "sue you until you run out of money" type of bullying. Why do you need to pay lots of money for a lawyer if you are in the right? * I worked on my project at night: here is my git log * I worked on my personal laptop * Your business is automated cars and my side project is a T shirt sale website

Are you not American? It seems like legal costs in the US are sky high and people are constantly afraid of getting sued. I think it's somewhat better in mainland Europe, at least I don't see such anxiety over getting sued or so many threats of suing someone.

I am America. I am questioning why it is required to hire a lawyer for my example above
Post reply on HN