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Developers’ side projects

joelonsoftware.com

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Re: Developers’ side projects

#121

Post by rjurney »

fao_ wrote: post #91
rjurney wrote: post #62

You ALL need to read California Labor Code 2870! Surprised nobody has mentioned the most essential thing to know about regarding this stuff in California. The site is down at the moment, but the link is: http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=lab&gr... CA 2870 is attached to any such agreement you sign in California, and protects independent invention. You should read it. This law forms the legal basis…

But, not everyone works in the US, or California, or for a company in CA?

Yup, but if you don't you need to understand how bad your state is fucking you by seeing how good we have it in California.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#122

Post by vesak »

maxxxxx wrote: post #70
vesak wrote: post #44

This is why programmers need unions! Or a guild. Or something! That employers totally dictate everything in a field that is in such high demand is absolutely unacceptable.

Most professionals have some kind of trade organization that sets standard. Doctors, laywers, many types of engineers. The problem is that programming is so attractive because the barrier for entry is so low that anybody can get into it without problems.

>The problem is that programming is so attractive because the barrier for entry is so low that anybody can get into it without problems.

I'd wager that it's easier to be a quack doctor or a lawyer than fake being a programmer. Most people cannot just grasp the needed details.

Not that it's a competition, though.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#123

Post by [deleted] »

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

[deleted]

Re: Developers’ side projects

#124

Post by maxxxxx »

vesak wrote: post #122
maxxxxx wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most professionals have some kind of trade organization that sets standard. Doctors, laywers, many types of engineers. The problem is that programming is so attractive because the barrier for entry is so low that anybody can get into it without problems.

>The problem is that programming is so attractive because the barrier for entry is so low that anybody can get into it without problems. I'd wager that it's easier to be a quack doctor or a lawyer than fake being a programmer. Most people cannot just grasp the needed details. Not that it's a competition, though.

You can't go out and open an office as lawyer or doctor without a license. You will get into trouble quickly. You also have to comply with a lot of rules. Anybody can call himself "software engineer" and he can pretty much do whatever he wants. That freedom is the exciting part about software but it has the disadvantage that there is no protection for "software engineers".

Re: Developers’ side projects

#125

Post by andrewstuart »

One idea for tackling this is for the employer to say to the employee "We own everything you do 365 X 24, but we will give you exclusions for pretty much anything as long as you identify the side project name and description in writing."

This means that just about all side projects are permitted, but must be identified in writing in advance, and gives the employer the chance to decline to approve, and in that circumstance then the employee can leave if they want.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#126

Post by derekp7 »

bnmillar wrote: post #103
alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

A contract I was offered had this crap in it. I asked them to clarify in writing what "related to the work" means. They refused so I declined the offer.

I wonder what legal recourse you have, if you don't get that contract until after your starting date (and have already left a previous job)? Even if you ask for all contract information ahead of time before accepting the job offer, and they conveniently leave that one out until after starting?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#127

Post by avmich »

rqebmm wrote: post #74
skybrian wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it seems weird that he doesn't say how to fix this: Get written agreement from your employer that your side project is your own. Some employers even have a standard process for doing this. They might say no, but then you know not to put any more work into it.

This is true, but ultimately if your company wants to be a dick about it, you could still end up having to fight them in court. They just have to say "when we signed that form you said it was a app, but now it's turned into a app which competes with our business. Hand it over." As Joel says, a judge/jury will probably be inclined to find for you, but you still have go through the pain and cost of litigation. Also, wh…

All startup advices, left and right, in unison say: it's way better to develop your product on somebody else's dime :) . Don't hurry to leave your work until your own business starts to fly.

Go figure... What are the practical ways to benefit from side projects? It's hard enough to work on two works at the same time, would be sad if the results would be lost.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#128

Post by microcolonel »

leggomylibro wrote: post #92
alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

On the first point, big companies clearly feel that they can claim any project that is related to the company's lines of work, not yours. Companies like Google, Amazon, and Microsoft have arms for hardware design, video game development, web development, close-to-the-metal graphical programming, embedded systems, retail...that's not just big enough to drive a truck through, it's big enough for that platform they truc…

Specifically at Google, you must submit work-unrelated open source submissions through Google legal; though they seem to be fairly quick with it.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#129

Post by siliconc0w »

OliverJones wrote: post #86

Joel doesn't often miss things, but with respect I think he missed something here. If you, the employee, are working for an employer you respect, and vice versa, YOU CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION! If your day job is, say, maintaining high-capacity forum software in dotnet, and you have this hankering to develop, say, a WordPress plugin to show the time of sunrise, you can talk about it. If you respect your boss and she res…

You can't really trust companies to 'do the right thing'. Your boss may be a great guy but he reports to someone who may also report to someone, etc. Maybe everyone is even aligned but that may change later with new management.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#130

Post by getpost »

OliverJones wrote: post #86

Joel doesn't often miss things, but with respect I think he missed something here. If you, the employee, are working for an employer you respect, and vice versa, YOU CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION! If your day job is, say, maintaining high-capacity forum software in dotnet, and you have this hankering to develop, say, a WordPress plugin to show the time of sunrise, you can talk about it. If you respect your boss and she res…

My experience is that employers, and people generally, are completely unpredictable. An employer might seem supportive, but later on decide that your side project should be company property.

And, people hear what they want to hear. The employee hears, "good luck with that project, great idea!" and thinks that means the employer doesn't want a stake in it. The employer might simply be intending to encourage the employee, thinking the project is obviously company owned.

"Having the conversation" only muddies the waters.

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