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Developers’ side projects

joelonsoftware.com

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Re: Developers’ side projects

#81

Post by jpmcglone »

tptacek wrote: post #36
jpmcglone wrote: post #33

What if the company does work out of San Francisco California, is incorporated in Delaware, but I live in North Carolina? Am I still protected?

Not a lawyer, probably wrong, but: California's courts won't enforce a contract not recognized by California law, but the courts of other states will, and it will depend on whether the employer can get personal jurisdiction for the case in the right state. The short answer is: in your situation, you'd need a lawyer. (I think --- not sure, not an authority --- that the "incorporation in Delaware" part of this has mini…

Makes sense.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#82

Post by broAhmed »

hyperopia wrote: post #25
swalsh wrote: post #13

The hope that one of my side projects will some day succeed, and I can leave my 9-5 is the only thing that drives me. If I said, "welp, legal" i'd die inside. Some people have church, I have side projects.

I was checking out your side project but couldn't figure out what it was/did?

It's a store.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#83

Post by zippergz »

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

If you ever have aspirations of having one of your side projects turn into something that gets outside investment, or gets acquired by another company, you need to be more careful. Having legal ambiguity (or even the chance of legal trouble that you'd almost surely win) is enough to scare off investors and acquirers.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#84

Post by a_e_k »

Where I work, there's a fairly streamlined process for getting waivers for side projects, including open source contributions. Fill out a page-long form broadly describing the intended side project and send it to Legal. If approved (and I've never had one rejected), a couple of weeks later they send back two copies of a document signed by them saying that the employee promises not to use company time or resources for that project and in return they agree to disavow any interest in it. Sign and date both copies, send one back, keep the other. Done. Everyone knows where they stand.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#85

Post by st3v3r »

KallDrexx wrote: post #55
paulrosenzweig wrote: post #10

I haven't heard about many disputed cases. I'd hope that if Google went around suing for possession of unrelated side projects, we'd hear about it. Maybe the possibility of being publicly shamed is a deterrent from pursing ownership.

A company I worked for (property appraisal company) got acquired by another company. They forced one of the higher up developers out. 6 months later that developer wrote an app dealing with lines at Disney and was making money on ad revenue. The company came after him claiming they owned it because he used skills and knowledge he gained while employed to write that app. We had a "everything you do at any time belongs…

Were they successful? I can't imagine any judge agreeing that, since you left a company, you can no longer make a living.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#86

Post by OliverJones »

Joel doesn't often miss things, but with respect I think he missed something here.

If you, the employee, are working for an employer you respect, and vice versa, YOU CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION!

If your day job is, say, maintaining high-capacity forum software in dotnet, and you have this hankering to develop, say, a WordPress plugin to show the time of sunrise, you can talk about it.

If you respect your boss and she respects you, the conversation will be fruitful. She may say, "please don't do that," and you'll understand why not. She may say "go ahead."

If you DON'T respect your boss, there's lots of advice here about how to proceed. But why not start out assuming mutual respect?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#87

Post by modeless »

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

> If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't need to worry.

I'm going to need more than your word to believe that. It's in pretty direct contradiction to the wording of the law, which states that it's your employer's work, not your work, that matters. Do you have any references to support your view? You say the courts rarely side with the company, I'd love to hear about some example cases where these issues were relevant.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#88

Post by st3v3r »

ferbivore wrote: post #30
jacques_chester wrote: post #21

Briefly: consult a lawyer.

Isn't it tragic how "pay a lawyer to tell you what your rights are" seems to be the answer to everything?

Not really. They're experts in law. We're experts in engineering. Doctors are experts in medicine. Would you say it's tragic that one needs to pay a doctor to tell you what's wrong with you?

Re: Developers’ side projects

#89

Post by ImTalking »

alxmng wrote: post #65

> Not related to your employer’s line of work. Um, wait. What’s the definition of related? [...] I don’t know. It’s a big enough ambiguity that you could drive a truck through it. No, it's not that ambiguous at all. The courts rarely side with the company, and only in cases where it's quite obvious the work was directly related. If your side project isn't directly related to the work you are doing, then you don't nee…

You don't quite understand Joel's point. Regardless of whether you are legally right, a larger company could sue you for the sake of suing, and make your life very miserable. And if the fight continues and you run out of money, what then?

I had exactly that thing. I was being bought-out and a small client decided (against the contract that they had signed) that the changes we had made to our mortgage broker commission system were their own IP, and that they would suffer damage if those changes were part of the overall IP we were selling to our prospective buyers. And it was absolute nonsense since their changes were just a collection of reports and small features which were part of the public domain since whenever. It took weeks to iron-out the agreement and obviously could have scuttled the buyout.

And when I left the company that bought me out to start another project, I made sure that I had a release to say that I'm indemnified against any future legal actions and I started the project the day after I got that release.

The old adage is correct: plan for the worst, hope for the best.

Re: Developers’ side projects

#90

Post by andy_ppp »

OliverJones wrote: post #86

Joel doesn't often miss things, but with respect I think he missed something here. If you, the employee, are working for an employer you respect, and vice versa, YOU CAN HAVE A CONVERSATION! If your day job is, say, maintaining high-capacity forum software in dotnet, and you have this hankering to develop, say, a WordPress plugin to show the time of sunrise, you can talk about it. If you respect your boss and she res…

Can I get that conversation in writing usually turns into maybe, then gets escalated, then gets a no, in my experience. Luckily I am 100% certain my boss (who owns the company) would sign something if I was looking to get investment.
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