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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#431

Post by Grishnakh »

jernfrost wrote: post #400
3131s wrote: post #160

I live in a very poor Asian country where most every parent has never given a single thought to behavior theory or been exposed to the whole parenting industry. It's mostly just feed your kid, let them run around unsupervised with other kids outside, and have the oldest child handle certain responsibilities like getting everybody to school on time. Having worked with kids back in the US and here, the contrast in beha…

I really dislike how American behavior is always equated with western. The US is just one part of the west. I think many of us in Europe have the exact same view on Americans and how they raise their kids. I am a Norwegian married to an American and I got to say American parenting seems claustrophobic and paranoid to me. American kids are under tight and organized control all the time. They got their playdates, piano…

It wasn't always like that here in the US. When I was young, I walked to school by myself, rode my bike for miles around the surrounding town and area, and had a lot of time to myself as I was raised by a single mother. The current trend of "helicopter parenting" didn't really exist back in the 70s and 80s as far as I can remember, and people certainly didn't get into legal trouble when their kids ran around outside unsupervised like they do now. The things you complain about seem to me to be recent changes, within the last 20 years. I had piano practice and soccer practice, and had to get driven to them because they were much too far to walk to and our public transit sucked back then just like it does now, but not "play dates" and zero unsupervised time. It was basically like you describe for current-day Norway.

I have no idea where we went off the rails in this country with regard to child-raising.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#432

Post by 3131s »

jernfrost wrote: post #400
3131s wrote: post #160

I live in a very poor Asian country where most every parent has never given a single thought to behavior theory or been exposed to the whole parenting industry. It's mostly just feed your kid, let them run around unsupervised with other kids outside, and have the oldest child handle certain responsibilities like getting everybody to school on time. Having worked with kids back in the US and here, the contrast in beha…

I really dislike how American behavior is always equated with western. The US is just one part of the west. I think many of us in Europe have the exact same view on Americans and how they raise their kids. I am a Norwegian married to an American and I got to say American parenting seems claustrophobic and paranoid to me. American kids are under tight and organized control all the time. They got their playdates, piano…

> I really dislike how American behavior is always equated with western.

Sorry about that. I tend to lump Westerners together because as a whole they do have so much more in common with each other than they do with Cambodians, and I've been here for a while now and don't really socialize with many non-Cambodians. Except for speaking in English typically with my wife (who is Cambodian) I speak more in Khmer than I do English, so it's pretty easy for me to get into the mentality of grouping all Westerners together unfairly (especially because here they tend to share other traits like being tourists, teachers, or NGO workers). But, my bad! I realize that the hover-parenting phenomenon is far, far worse in the US than in Europe.

And as you said the college experience in the US does involve a lot of hovering and nannying, hence my repeated near expulsion! Long story short, but the sole reason I was not expelled involved successfully hiding under a bed.

> It is rather ironic that in the land of individualism and freedom, there is so much control and regulation on peoples lives. I think Americans have mistaken economic freedom for personal freedom.

Americans are just delusional and most have no conception of what freedom really is. In my home state they can't even buy a beer on a Sunday, to give a sort of trivial but emblematic example. Too much propaganda rots the brain :)

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#433

Post by irishcoffee »

tux1968 wrote: post #421
irishcoffee wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody likes that answer. Personal accountability sucks.

It doesn't matter what people like, what matters are the facts of the situation. I'm arguing that answers like yours are self serving reinforcement of your own ideas about morality which blind you to the possibility that you're just wrong in thinking that everyone is on the same playing field. That does NOT mean we aren't all personally responsible. It means that you should consider having compassion and less contemp…

> So why do you presume to know FOR SURE that everyone who is fat got that way because of a failing of personal accountability?

Nope. I think we both agree there are edge cases for every situation. Where I find fault with your premise is that it is presumed everyone with a "problem" (weight, anxiety, depression, etc.) all fall into the "edge-case" category, where in fact 99% of them do not. Despite that, I get annoyed when we as a people assume that the the majority of people fall into the minority group.

Being very over-weight is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. I posit that the same argument can be made about anxiety, or depression, et al.

> I hope you'll reconsider your position. At least to admit there is a possibility that other people have unseen handicaps that you just don't have to deal with.

Sure thing, absolutely. I'l even go as far as to say I don't need to reconsider this. I agree with your point. Where I take umbrage is with the fact that people are allowed to shirk personal responsibility, hiding under the guise of "this problem is bigger than me", when in fact is isn't. The majority take advantage of the sincere problems (missing a leg) of the minority, which to me is slap in the face of people who need the real help and attention.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#434

Post by flukus »

0xfeba wrote: post #381
flukus wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was very common everywhere until about 10-20 years ago. My mum even keeps her collection of broken wooden spoons.

> It was very common everywhere until about 10-20 years ago. I keep hearing this mentioned as why "kids these days" are so stupid/weak/emotional/etc, without any proof. I'm curious if there is any (popular) research in these areas that I can show otherwise (or not!).

I don't know any research, but here (Australia) it's gone from perfectly acceptable to illegal in a generation. As I said, my mum has her broken wooden spoon collection (Dads belts were more durable) but my nephews aren't familiar with the concept of a spanking, let alone a belt or having your mouth washed with soap for swearing.

It was removed from government schools in the early to mid 90's and eventually made illegal in private schools too.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#435

Post by Fluke82 »

0xfeba wrote: post #381
flukus wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was very common everywhere until about 10-20 years ago. My mum even keeps her collection of broken wooden spoons.

> It was very common everywhere until about 10-20 years ago. I keep hearing this mentioned as why "kids these days" are so stupid/weak/emotional/etc, without any proof. I'm curious if there is any (popular) research in these areas that I can show otherwise (or not!).

There is a lot(!) of research on spanking (some links below) but there is a quote I heard go around attributed to Cicero, born 106BC, that I think is a better answer to your question: "Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book."

Similarly I remember in my college history of communication class, we were very interested in if the Internet would destroy relationships and power dynamics (I'm dating myself, Internet was new at the time) and we spent a lot of time looking at how upset people were with the rise of literacy, such as in Hunchback of Notre-Dame there is the sentiment that the book will destroy the church.

All this to say we have been complaining "kids these days" basically since they invented spoken language. Possibly we see kids differently today in western culture because we control more of their activities and time so we get more pushback ("I don't want to go to music class!") or simply we spend more time with our kids now than generations past and rather than allowing them to run outdoors with their friends, we see them running in restaurants and other non-ideal places.

Anyway, research on spanking/hitting as promised:

Gershoff's overview of past research - Spanking and Child Development: We Know Enough Now To Stop Hitting Our Children - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3768154/

American Psychological Association 2012 overview - http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx

Pediatrics article linking spanking to increased child aggression - Mothers' Spanking of 3-Year-Old Children and Subsequent Risk of Children's Aggressive Behavior - http://m.pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/0...

Canadian Academic publication overview - Physical punishment of children: lessons from 20 years of research -http://m.cmaj.ca/content/early/2012/02/06/cmaj.101314.full.p...

Abstract of article correlating spanking and later abuse - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18779030

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#436

Post by llimllib »

prawn wrote: post #208
llimllib wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With my son, "time for a bath!", no matter how excited, yields crying. "Would you rather watch trains or buses after your bath?" yields an excited choice. (As with all parenting advice: usually.)

If you want to avoid promising TV/iPad as a reward, good alternatives are: "If you get in the bath, I'll go and choose a bath toy that you've never even played with before." (And then I find something random in the kitchen - ladle, colander, Tupperware, etc.) or "If you get dressed, I'll tell you something interesting about Mercury." (Or owls, or bullet trains or anything you can come up with.) Used the Mercury one w…

It's not a reward, I always let him watch buses on the iPad after the bath while I dry him off. He likes it and I don't see any problem with it. Just meant to give an example of a way that changing the framing works with a two year old (/anybody)

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#437

Post by schlumpf »

mariodiana wrote: post #418
marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

I've read that when you're instructing a child to do something, whether you're a parent or a teacher, you should never end the instruction with "Okay?".

In our house the question is used to ascertain whether the child heard his parent and if so, the probability of compliance with the request/observation/dire threat to the well-being of a favored toy. At no time has it been construed by any of the parties as the parent (noun) requesting permission to parent (verb).

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#438

Post by scott_karana »

MarkMc wrote: post #373
3131s wrote: post #160

I live in a very poor Asian country where most every parent has never given a single thought to behavior theory or been exposed to the whole parenting industry. It's mostly just feed your kid, let them run around unsupervised with other kids outside, and have the oldest child handle certain responsibilities like getting everybody to school on time. Having worked with kids back in the US and here, the contrast in beha…

It's interesting that in rich Asian countries like Japan, Korea, Singapore, the stereotype is of Tiger Moms whose parenting attitude is the polar opposite of what you describe. Perhaps taking a hands-off approach is more likely to result in well-adjusted, independent children AND children who learn and earn less.

That is a Western stereotype of Eastern parenting, _not_ how they necessarily parent.

Plus there's some selection/survivorship bias in immigrant populations. (Nor is it unique to Asian immigrants!)

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#439

Post by geon »

hueving wrote: post #336
geon wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are 99 % or 9/10 not precise numbers? And "very rare" was a comment on "99 %", not a quantity on its own. HN is the one place where I expect readers to interpret numbers literally.

Are 9/10 and 99% the same number to you? Would you describe a random number generator outputting 5 when picking between 1 and 10 as "very rare"? 1/10 != 1/100 != "very rare"

They are for separate things.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#440

Post by coldtea »

GuiA wrote: post #285
coldtea wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but ultimately there is a finite amount of bedtime moments, meals, Sunday mornings, etc in your kid's lives. Try as you might, fuck you money won't change that. I think you've misunderstood the concept of fuck you money, at least as it relates to time. They don't buy you more time -- they buy you the luxury to be you that decides what you do with your finite time. And bonding with your children is entirely up to yo…

> money buys you the luxury to be you that decides what you do with your finite time This is an illusion. Ultimately, you have to choose what is a priority in your life. There will be moments, many of them, where you have to choose between a board meeting or making it to bedtime, or taking a business trip across the world or a weekend spent hiking with your kids. If you choose too many of the latter, at some point yo…

>>money buys you the luxury to be you that decides what you do with your finite time >This is an illusion. Ultimately, you have to choose what is a priority in your life.

Notice how you just confirm the same thing I said. So, hardly an illusion.

"Ultimately, you have to choose what is a priority in your life" == "it's you that decides what you do with your finite time"

>There will be moments, many of them, where you have to choose between a board meeting or making it to bedtime, or taking a business trip across the world or a weekend spent hiking with your kids.

That's exactly what I said. Musk gets to chose.

>If you choose too many of the latter, at some point your board will get sick of you, your executives will stop trusting you, etc.

So, at worse you'll be off the board, and still left with b/millions in the bank. And only if you do it all the time.

Still, not the same kind of problem as not being able to spend time with your kids because you work all the time or you'll fall behind on rent and be homeless, etc...

>If you're prioritizing the things that let you be the CEO of a company, you're necessarily deprioritizing the things that let you spend the most time with your kids.

The whole point is that you don't HAVE to "prioritize the things that let you be the CEO of a company".

And you'll still be rich, with a home, with money to educate and feed your children etc if you DON'T.

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