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You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

medium.freecodecamp.com

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Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#21

Post by kybernetyk »

rublev wrote: post #16
huangc10 wrote: post #9

and guess what? You don't need a website either. Step 1: Get a copy of "The C Programming Language" by Dennis Ritchie, Brian Kernighan. Step 2: Learn the fundamentals Step 3: Master other languages Edit...I know there's been a lot of negativity towards my comment and I can understand why. I like to keep my comments simple and leave it to the reader's interpretation. However, it seems my comment was too simple... Let'…

Standard HN comment, and also absolutely insane. Have you met people with limited computer experience just getting 'into' it? Computers and code are literal magic to them. I mean people who's lives don't really entail a computer at all beyond social media. I taught at a local bootcamp. It had less to do with code and more to do with getting people to think in abstractions within a specific domain. If you can sit in a…

>Computers and code are literal magic to them.

Ok, but why do those people think they just need to do a 5 week long $15k bootcamp to get a job as a senior software dev and make $100k+/year?

I get that people want to expand their knowledge. But these bootcamps don't cater to this kind of people.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#22

Post by RKoutnik »

falcolas wrote: post #12

If you could find a way to create a broadly recognized and meaningful certification, you wouldn't need school at all. You have the JavaScript certification? You know how to code. Doesn't matter if you went to an Ivy League school or (re-)created all of the fundamentals from scratch. Make the certification standards free as in speech, charge a minimal fee to cover administration of the exams, and go to town.

Hey there. I'm certified to the hilt: IC3, CompTia A+/Net+/Security+ & Microsoft Certified Professional. All before I left high school.

These certifications were absolutely useless when it came to getting me a job whenever I interviewed somewhere where they knew what they were doing. All they proved was that I was particularly good at studying and taking tests. This may be a useful skill in another career but in IT (the area of the certs) and even more in software (where I work now) memorizing rote knowledge is nigh-useless in the era of StackOverflow and Google.

Any sort of programming certification test would be gameable. A test that can be gamed isn't useful for hiring - once again, you're not proving they're a competent programmer, just that they're good at taking tests. No company you want to get hired at will use such a metric.

If it was possible to prove the quality of a coder via a certification test, we'd be out of a job. One of the key signs of a good programmer is their ability to expertly handle problems & situations they've never encountered before, which is (by definition) impossible via some sort of standardized test.

A certification might prove that I've memorized the parameters that get passed into the function in Array.prototype.map but it'll never tell me if someone can build software solutions to real-life problems.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#23

Post by ng12 »

wyldfire wrote: post #10
huangc10 wrote: post #9

and guess what? You don't need a website either. Step 1: Get a copy of "The C Programming Language" by Dennis Ritchie, Brian Kernighan. Step 2: Learn the fundamentals Step 3: Master other languages Edit...I know there's been a lot of negativity towards my comment and I can understand why. I like to keep my comments simple and leave it to the reader's interpretation. However, it seems my comment was too simple... Let'…

That's ludicrous, IMO. I think that people who are in the market for a $15k coding bootcamp should steer way clear of K&R (and LCTHW). Why? Because C is not the right tool for 95% of the jobs the coding bootcamp crowd will be asked to solve. Don't get me wrong, C's great and I followed your three-step process over the years. But we don't need to do that anymore because most devs will just eke out the slimmest benefit…

> Because C is not the right tool for 95% of the jobs the coding bootcamp crowd will be asked to solve.

Totally irrelevant. My first language was Scheme and I haven't touched a functional language in the 10 years since. However I'm really glad I learned it (through SICP) because it set me up for success later.

This is actually what I think is the big problem with bootcamps -- they want to treat software engineering as a trade. I don't care if you can check off the Javascript box on the resume. I care that you're an intelligent, motivated developer who's able to build decent software.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#24

Post by hulahoof »

CN7R wrote: post #8
q3k wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with having 'no credentials'?

From what I have research, a computer science degree and a boot camp certificate are very different in terms of education. The former focuses on depth and the fundamentals of CS. The latter is more practical and focuses implementation where languages matter more.

From my experience doing a bit of both the bootcamp was focused on getting the results using technology X, Y and traditional study was understanding the paradigms that allow technology X, Y.

To me it is the difference between learning to build and learning to design (something to build).

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#25

Post by canterburry »

I too am a bit confused to why coding bootcamps are needed. I am sure they nicely compress lots of information into a short timeframe but even back in 1997 I was able to teach myself to code simply by sitting at Barnes and Noble reading book after book after book and then trying things out on my own. Today, this should be even easier since it's all online anyway.

If it's too much work looking it up yourself, maybe you don't want to code as much as you think you do.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#26

Post by djtriptych »

canterburry wrote: post #25

I too am a bit confused to why coding bootcamps are needed. I am sure they nicely compress lots of information into a short timeframe but even back in 1997 I was able to teach myself to code simply by sitting at Barnes and Noble reading book after book after book and then trying things out on my own. Today, this should be even easier since it's all online anyway. If it's too much work looking it up yourself, maybe yo…

You don't think you could have done that more efficiently with 8 hours of expert instruction per day?

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#27

Post by [deleted] »

kybernetyk wrote: post #21
rublev wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard HN comment, and also absolutely insane. Have you met people with limited computer experience just getting 'into' it? Computers and code are literal magic to them. I mean people who's lives don't really entail a computer at all beyond social media. I taught at a local bootcamp. It had less to do with code and more to do with getting people to think in abstractions within a specific domain. If you can sit in a…

>Computers and code are literal magic to them. Ok, but why do those people think they just need to do a 5 week long $15k bootcamp to get a job as a senior software dev and make $100k+/year? I get that people want to expand their knowledge. But these bootcamps don't cater to this kind of people.

[deleted]

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#28

Post by bdcravens »

curiouscat321 wrote: post #4
mgirdley wrote: post #3

Did these guys pay a fee to YC? They seem to pop up weekly on the front page.

I doubt they paid a fee. But clearly, they're either gaming the system or there's a very large population on HN who are trying to break into the industry with no credentials.

> But clearly, they're either gaming the system or there's a very large population on HN who are trying to break into the industry with no credentials.

Not necessarily "clearly"; perhaps it's another thing altogether. We tend to be anti-marketing, and many see coding schools as selling a dream ("99% of our graduates get hired at a $100K starting salary"), while producing graduates that are ready to be interns at best. The idea of the anti-bootcamp, in the sense that it's not profit-driven, resonates.

I'm curious what kind of credentials you're referring to, however. Paid boot camps? CS degree?

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#29

Post by user5994461 »

falcolas wrote: post #12

If you could find a way to create a broadly recognized and meaningful certification, you wouldn't need school at all. You have the JavaScript certification? You know how to code. Doesn't matter if you went to an Ivy League school or (re-)created all of the fundamentals from scratch. Make the certification standards free as in speech, charge a minimal fee to cover administration of the exams, and go to town.

If our jobs could be achieved by going to a 2 weeks certification, there would be plenty of people to do it and no need for the certification in the first place.

Re: You might not need that $15K coding bootcamp

#30

Post by narrator »

huangc10 wrote: post #9

and guess what? You don't need a website either. Step 1: Get a copy of "The C Programming Language" by Dennis Ritchie, Brian Kernighan. Step 2: Learn the fundamentals Step 3: Master other languages Edit...I know there's been a lot of negativity towards my comment and I can understand why. I like to keep my comments simple and leave it to the reader's interpretation. However, it seems my comment was too simple... Let'…

Back when I was a teenager I read "The C Programming Language" and did not get it at all. There's a lot of jargon in there that presumes familiarity with low level operating system and computer architecture concepts. I read it again a few years ago after many years of a successful software development career and it seemed generally concise and practical. Point being, there are much better introductory CS texts such as "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs".
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