No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems • Hacker News Board

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#271

Post by bluejekyll » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:26 AM UTC

emp_zealoth wrote: post #250

pvg wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Here [at the Yale Parenting Center], we deal with two kinds of children. One is that they are very aggressive and have serious psychiatric problems. And the other one is that they come in for normal kinds of issues that parents just want some help on." I don't think these people are just dispensing pop psych advice in magazines or once a week. It's a clinic.

I personally know a child who was a literal hellspawn for 10+ years and would not respond to any kind of newfangled therapy Then his dad got too mad over him literally failing school and leather belt fixed him within a year Which was not a single stop solution either

There was something else going on. Physical violence is not a cure for any known disease.

I have two kids, and as angry as they can make me, I always find that calming the situation down is way better than escalating it.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#272

Post by grzm » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:29 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #227

quickConclusion wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, i can see where the risk of confusion is. But wondering how it could have been written for similar effect... " For the teens, the psychologist's advice is literally: well, maybe don't be such a bitch in the first place, Mom. " Feels a bit confusing. Is there a better way?

Actually you're making me think that I picked a bad example to plant a flag on. The general point, about not using quotation marks as a rhetorical device or snark weapon, is a good one: it really does subtly degrade online discourse. But the example doesn't show that as clearly as it might, and the commenter was being a good sport and didn't do anything wrong. Sorry!

This type of explanation and review is a great example of why I appreciate the manner and spirit of moderation on HN.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#273

Post by qb45 » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:37 AM UTC

bluejekyll wrote: post #271

emp_zealoth wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally know a child who was a literal hellspawn for 10+ years and would not respond to any kind of newfangled therapy Then his dad got too mad over him literally failing school and leather belt fixed him within a year Which was not a single stop solution either

There was something else going on. Physical violence is not a cure for any known disease. I have two kids, and as angry as they can make me, I always find that calming the situation down is way better than escalating it.

> Physical violence is not a cure for any known disease.

Since when somebody disagreeing with you is a disease?

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#274

Post by dpandey » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:37 AM UTC

The core of the article is hard to disagree with: positive reinforcement is much more important effective than punishment.

But what if the kid just doesn't want to do what you want to reinforce? Just repeating your preferred choices aren't going to work. Kids are not stupid: they can tell that you're just trying to ignore what they want and push your choices. They'll frequently resist either actively or passively.

My approach to my son is: I praise him when he does something that looks right to me. When I disagree, I argue and reason with him like an adult. I try to project him on the receiving end to show how he's being unreasonable.

A large part of it is just understanding the kid's temperament and style of thinking and finding out effective ways of dealing with it through experimentation. A lot of empathy. When they see you're trying to understand their frustration they become more thoughtful.

This article has many good ideas but generalizing them sounds like an immature approach.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#275

Post by 3131s » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:40 AM UTC

caseylabs wrote: post #189

3131s wrote: post #160

I live in a very poor Asian country where most every parent has never given a single thought to behavior theory or been exposed to the whole parenting industry. It's mostly just feed your kid, let them run around unsupervised with other kids outside, and have the oldest child handle certain responsibilities like getting everybody to school on time. Having worked with kids back in the US and here, the contrast in beha…

I have to agree here. I lived in a tiny village in Laos for 4 months a few years back, and I have to say, the six year-olds were more mature, independent, and emotionally sophisticated than some 16 year-olds I knew back home. Favorite slightly-related story: while teaching a class of 8 year-olds one day, a student in the back opened up his desk, and pulled out a machete. My heart stopped for a beat. He then proceeded…

I live in Cambodia going on about 4 years now. I almost said the exact same thing in my post, that the 6 year olds in my alley act pretty much like little adults. You see them buying things from the market, helping their parents, socializing with kids twice their age, etc. They almost never fight or cry, and if they do there's no parent rushing over to console them unless it's something serious. But, parents here are still very compassionate and work extremely hard toward giving their children a good future.

One of my favorite stories actually comes from my wife. Early on in our relationship she told me that as a kid her favorite thing to do was to pretend to be a cook. I assumed this meant that she had some toy cookware, something like the equivalent of a kid's tea party. But, as I inquired more, she explained that her play cooking involved sneaking off with her mom's knives and pans, buying a few vegetables from nearby sellers, starting a fire in one of those little firepots that are common here, and sometimes even going to the local pond to catch a fish! It's no wonder that she's a good cook now and also I think it's part of the reason she's been extremely successful professionally despite a lot of adversity.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#276

Post by Veedrac » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:43 AM UTC

paganel wrote: post #102

SerLava wrote: post #5

> Let’s say you have an adolescent daughter and she says to you, “Mom, you are such a bitch. What have you ever done for me? You only think of yourself.” > The teen may be at the dinner table and just being quiet and not saying negative things. Well, when you're starting out, one of the positive-opposites can sometimes be reinforcing the non-occurrence of the behavior. And you just say, “Marion, it's nice having dinn…

> Let’s say you have an adolescent daughter and she says to you, “Mom, you are such a bitch. What have you ever done for me? You only think of yourself.” Maybe it's because I grew up as a kid in another culture (Eastern Europe) and some time ago (I'm 36 now) but do kids nowadays really call their parents "bitch"? My parents almost never laid their hands on me (the couple of times they actually did I had deserved it)…

Psychologists don't see an unbiased samples of families. What's unthinkable in a high functioning family like yours would, at some points when I was growing up, have been extremely mild in mine. I don't know what the base rate is, but it's certainly not something you can guess from a single sample.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#277

Post by 3131s » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:43 AM UTC

icc97 wrote: post #206

3131s wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean this in a snarky way, but have you ever just left it up to him? How old is your son? I understand your thinking if his skin condition is very serious, but if it's just a matter of him being uncomfortable because he forgot, then that's the type of thing I would be totally hands-off about.

Yes, they don't do it. How long should the experiment continue?

So, I got downvoted but I would say indefinitely if it's not a serious condition. Your child is actually capable of having priorities in life if you let him, and apparently the skin dryness thing must not bother him that much.

EDIT: Noticed you're not the GP.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#278

Post by spiderfarmer » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:44 AM UTC

yummybear wrote: post #258

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

My personal experience from two young children is that it works, most of the time. Obviously there are still issues - maybe the young one wants to bring some toy to school on a non-toy day - in this case getting to choose the color of sweater isn't going to help. But mostly this approach seems to work. Now we as parents still need to remember to use this approach, which we unfortunately often forget in the morning ru…

My wife is a teacher, she always says poblems need to be fixed where it's easiest to fix them. So if a kid brings a toy to school on a non toy day, she will confiscate it (and give it back at the end of the day). She only needs to set one example for an entire year.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#279

Post by coldtea » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:47 AM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #235

coldtea wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yeah right. I'm sure musk thinks, hmmm today instead of working all day on a fun project I think I'll parent! Many rich people do that all the time. If he doesn't think his kids is a "fun project" too, then that's his choice, not something born out of necessity. > You can't have it both ways. You can, if you have "fuck you money", which Musk has 10000 times over. It's the poor people who work 2 shifts and barely ha…

> You can, if you have "fuck you money", which Musk has 10000 times over. You can have "fuck you money", but you can't have "fuck you time". Sure, the capitalist HN crowd will argue that money can buy you time (e.g. by having people do your chores for you, etc) but ultimately there is a finite amount of bedtime moments, meals, Sunday mornings, etc in your kid's lives. Try as you might, fuck you money won't change tha…

>but ultimately there is a finite amount of bedtime moments, meals, Sunday mornings, etc in your kid's lives. Try as you might, fuck you money won't change that.

I think you've misunderstood the concept of fuck you money, at least as it relates to time.

They don't buy you more time -- they buy you the luxury to be you that decides what you do with your finite time. And bonding with your children is entirely up to you (or Musk's in this example) decision if you have those.

Besides, nobody argued that there's not a "finite amount of bedtime moments, meals, Sunday mornings, etc in your kid's life" -- just that when you are rich it's upon you (and not, e.g. your boss or financial necessities, or drudgery work like cooking, and cleaning and such) to spend more of your time with your kid during those moments.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#280

Post by riffraff » Mon, Dec 05, 2016, 7:47 AM UTC

I don't understand: how do you reinforce behaviour that is the default?

Do you tell your kids every minute "I appreciate you didn't break the window/throw the glass on the floor/pour milk on the carpet/put play-doh in the washing machine"?

I get that it works for clearly delimited things like "put on your clothes properly" or "don't make a mess during dinner" but that doesn't cover 90% of the time that I need to tell my daughter "don't do that" :( .