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No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

theatlantic.com

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Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#241

Post by geon »

jackmott wrote: post #151
tw04 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why that would humble her. If she trained dogs, then she already knew 99% of the dogs out there with behavioral issues are a direct result of the owner. There are VERY rare circumstances where it's just a genetic defect (for lack of better term) in the dog, and it just has insurmountable issues. After fostering/owning roughly 75 dogs in my life, I can say 9 times out of 10 that consistency and discipline…

9 out of 10 or 99 out of 100?

99 % dogs, 9/10 children.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#242

Post by maxxxxx »

Waterluvian wrote: post #226
maxxxxx wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

I think some breeds are just kind of fundamentally flawed. Were chihuahuas bred to be obedient or were they bred to be toys and possibly food?

No idea. They are very good lapdogs. Our dog is actually very nice and cute but she just doesn't learn anything. T

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#243

Post by pvg »

maxxxxx wrote: post #113
marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

"Here [at the Yale Parenting Center], we deal with two kinds of children. One is that they are very aggressive and have serious psychiatric problems. And the other one is that they come in for normal kinds of issues that parents just want some help on."

I don't think these people are just dispensing pop psych advice in magazines or once a week. It's a clinic.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#244

Post by Retra »

douche wrote: post #177
Klinky wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting 4-year-old children are emotionally mature enough to properly express their displeasure with something in a productive manner? Maybe some are, but others are very hair triggered with their emotions and interpret not getting their way as if they were being murdered. Perhaps working around these fatal emotion exceptions is better than running into them every day, at least until the child's brain has…

> The "I don't have romantic feelings for you, but would like to remain friends" tactic is quite popular Has this ever, in the history of mankind, actually worked?

In my experience it works very well. I've had people say that to me, and I've said that to other people, and I'm relatively happy on both ends of it. In fact, I'm currently in a very healthy relationship with someone who I've said that to several years ago. So it "works" however you want to measure it. The trick is not to be 15 years old.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#245

Post by Retra »

manarth wrote: post #124

So much of this sounds like "control". > "it's BF Skinner's Operant Conditioning" > "Choice increases the likelihood of compliance" > "There are a whole bunch of things that happen…and you can get the child to comply" Most parents would want the best for their child, but there's a massive gulf between wanting the best for someone, and using psychological tricks to force them into complying with expectations.

"Control" is how you ensure good decisions are being made. You don't get the best for your child without controlling what they get.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#246

Post by nkozyra »

marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

> My 4 year will always ask for a 3rd option that isn't there, or just reject the framing entirely.

Because children of that age (and younger) have two traits that will always trump logic:

1. Defiance (better described as a need to understand independence)

and

2. A lack of long-term thinking

When a child - who wishes to experience control - wants a cookie, a choice between a banana and an apple is untenable.

Be wary of interpretations that give you broad-reaching advice on how to essentially manipulate children. This - child psychology and help - is a huge industry; interpreting studies to fit a narrative is simple and rarely meets argument.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#247

Post by WalterSear »

nkozyra wrote: post #246
marcell wrote: post #62

Quoting the article: > "Sarah, put on the green coat or the red sweater. We're going to go out, okay?" Choice among humans increases the likelihood of compliance. And choice isn't important, it's the appearance of choice that's important. I've gotten this exact advice from so many articles and pop psych pieces. Maybe they are written by non-parents or their children are much easier, but it never works for me. My 4 ye…

> My 4 year will always ask for a 3rd option that isn't there, or just reject the framing entirely. Because children of that age (and younger) have two traits that will always trump logic: 1. Defiance (better described as a need to understand independence) and 2. A lack of long-term thinking When a child - who wishes to experience control - wants a cookie, a choice between a banana and an apple is untenable. Be wary…

More than one four year old of my acquaintance know a bullshit false dichotomy when they see one.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#248

Post by tempestn »

andrewwhartion wrote: post #204
maxxxxx wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

I think it's also that a dog will also respond differently to a third party (the trainer) than how they respond to the owner with whom they already have a relationship. The owner could use the exact same techniques as the trainer, but the dog will respond differently. Same thing as why organizational change can be more effective when lead by an external change agent than an internal one.

Exactly the same thing is true of a child with their parents compared to other caregivers.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#249

Post by cwp »

inimino wrote: post #198
cwp wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But... quote marks are grammatically correct. They're the only way to mention words and phrases you're not actually using them. Yes, the things we write are subject to misinterpretation, particularly when stripped of the their context. But asking people to avoid correct use of punctuation isn't going to make that less likely. Quite the opposite, in fact.

These quote marks were not semantically correct. It is not a point of grammar. The comment literally reads: > the psychologist's advice is literally "[not a quote]" When you put something in the form of a quotation, the accepted meaning is that it is a quotation. In this case it is, literally, not something the psychologist actually advised.

Not at all. When you put some words inside quotes, you're saying you want to talk about those words, without using them yourself. I can say, for example, that I've never heard anyone claim, "The sun is made of purple gumdrops," because that would be ridiculous. I know that the sun is actually made of hot gases, and you know that I know that.

The problem with SerLava's comment was that it put words in the author's mouth, not his punctuation.

Re: No Spanking, No Time-Out, No Problems

#250

Post by emp_zealoth »

pvg wrote: post #243
maxxxxx wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the problem with one-size-fits-all methods. Kids are just different and what worked for one child doesn't necessarily work for another child. Even if you do exactly the same thing. My girlfriend used to train dogs for a living. She always said "it's the owner's fault, not the dog's". Now we have a Chihuahua who won't listen, doesn't respond to rewards, doesn't respond to punishment. She just does her own thing…

"Here [at the Yale Parenting Center], we deal with two kinds of children. One is that they are very aggressive and have serious psychiatric problems. And the other one is that they come in for normal kinds of issues that parents just want some help on." I don't think these people are just dispensing pop psych advice in magazines or once a week. It's a clinic.

I personally know a child who was a literal hellspawn for 10+ years and would not respond to any kind of newfangled therapy

Then his dad got too mad over him literally failing school and leather belt fixed him within a year

Which was not a single stop solution either

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