A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar) • Hacker News Board

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#21

Post by pyrophane » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:33 PM UTC

fergie wrote: post #13

I hadn't considered the removal of the esc key from a vi/emacs perspective. Is this something that can be lived with?

For vim either map a key sequence "jj" or "fd" to esc or remap caps lock to esc. Many vim users do that anyway for the convenience.

Not sure about emacs (I use spacemacs). Does esc come in for more than just cancelling commands? If you don't need to use your caps lock for ctrl for emacs, the same remap to esc would work as well.

Anyway, basically boils down to two things: 1) the touch bar escape is fine for occasional use but I wouldn't want to use it frequently and 2) that isn't a problem if you don't mind remapping caps lock and have nothing more important to do with it.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#22

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

geophile wrote: post #2

How does a programmer evaluate this machine without discussing at least one of vi and emacs, and the absence of real Esc and Fn keys? By the way, I visited an Apple store and played with the new 15" MBP. It's even worse than I thought. I downloaded the latest Gnu Emacs, and the Fn virtual keys were not available. And in no case did I see the Esc and Fn virtual keys present at the same time. Also ridiculous is the fac…

[deleted]

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#23

Post by buckhx » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

threeseed wrote: post #12

enraged_camel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>How does a programmer evaluate this machine without discussing at least one of vi and emacs, and the absence of real Esc and Fn keys? What percentage of programmers use vi or emacs?

Quite a lot. If you are doing anything on remote servers it's likely to be the only text editor. But I guarantee you that 99.999% of them only know (and need to know) the basics e.g. saving file, search, find/replace etc. I would say maybe 1% of developers actually use them as an IDE given how poor they are compared to something like IntelliJ or Visual Studio.

1% is WWWAAAYYY too low. The stack overflow survey in a sibling comment had 30%. Some of us don't love all the baggage that comes with a full IDE.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#24

Post by pyrophane » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

My only problem with the keyboard (I actually like it, which surprised me) is that it seems quite easy to get small things like crumbs stuck under the keys, which can render them unusable. I've already had this happen on the new MBP, never experienced it on any other keyboard. Was able to dislodge it with compressed air, but if this happens a lot it could become a serious inconvenience.

I thought about a keyboard cover but I don't think apple left room between the keycaps and display for that when the lid is closed.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#25

Post by nol13 » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:37 PM UTC

drawkbox wrote: post #9

enraged_camel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>How does a programmer evaluate this machine without discussing at least one of vi and emacs, and the absence of real Esc and Fn keys? What percentage of programmers use vi or emacs?

Use or say they use? vi and emacs are alot like some programming books people say they have read to show they are a programmer because they think that it what it means. My guess, < 10% with all the IDEs and text editors out there today. On servers or VMs they are common, in actually coding, probably overstated.

Admit I use nano whenever editing through ssh, fake escape key was still the first thought through my mind when I saw that though. They at least have a little braille bump where escape is supposed to be? (if not new accessory opportunity? can i get a design patent on that?)

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#26

Post by hellofunk » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

frusciante29 wrote: post #15

The Pro in Macbook Pro does not stand for "programmer". The device is not catering to the past. The world is not full of UNIX era programmers. Some future programmers are getting their first laptop during the coming holidays. If you think Esc then I is the future of programming tools, I don't know what to tell you.

Vi is not just the past. It remains one of the best ways to edit text, period. And it will probably continue this way long into the future. Why do you think so many IDEs come with vim emulation?

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#27

Post by hellofunk » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

zeeveener wrote: post #19

fergie wrote: post #13

I hadn't considered the removal of the esc key from a vi/emacs perspective. Is this something that can be lived with?

Apparently using TAB or CAPS LOCK instead of ESC is a pretty popular alternative. I haven't tried it myself, but I have heard of it.

I have caps-a mapped to Esc but still find myself hitting escape just as often.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#28

Post by noahwilde » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:40 PM UTC

frusciante29 wrote: post #15

The Pro in Macbook Pro does not stand for "programmer". The device is not catering to the past. The world is not full of UNIX era programmers. Some future programmers are getting their first laptop during the coming holidays. If you think Esc then I is the future of programming tools, I don't know what to tell you.

It stands (presumably) for professional, so it seems very reasonable for professionals (in this case programmers) to discuss how useful it it for them. As I'm sure digital musicians are talking about how well it will work with logic.

> If you think Esc then I is the future of programming tools, I don't know what to tell you.

It's certainly not the complete future of programming, but it seems like we'll be in the command line and remoting into machines for a long time. It's condescending to write off those concerns as being "in the past."

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#29

Post by duozerk » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

pyrophane wrote: post #21

fergie wrote: post #13

I hadn't considered the removal of the esc key from a vi/emacs perspective. Is this something that can be lived with?

For vim either map a key sequence "jj" or "fd" to esc or remap caps lock to esc. Many vim users do that anyway for the convenience. Not sure about emacs (I use spacemacs). Does esc come in for more than just cancelling commands? If you don't need to use your caps lock for ctrl for emacs, the same remap to esc would work as well. Anyway, basically boils down to two things: 1) the touch bar escape is fine for occasiona…

Emacs user here, I think I never use escape; I use C-g to cancel a command.

Re: A Programmer Evaluates the MacBook Pro (Touch Bar)

#30

Post by pilif » Sat, Dec 03, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

noahwilde wrote: post #11

an_account wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is exactly how it works by default on old MacBook pros, since almost all the function keys were overwritten to control functions by default.

It appears you can't opt into it permanently? I'd be interested in finding out if you can just set it to always show function keys.

Even better: you can configure it per application in the foreground.