Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#111

Post by rootusrootus » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:54 PM UTC

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #68

3poundkilograms wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One monkey says to a group of other monkeys: "We all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have to feed the doctor monkey, the asphalt monkey and the teacher monkey, from whom we receive services." One monkey from the group, which just came back in his car from the doctor monkey with his daughter that goes to the local monkey school: "I refuse to give up my bananas!". Remember context. Full context is imp…

I appreciate your response and POV :) Why can we not assume that the doctor monkey is operating a private medical practice, his daughter is sent to a private monkey school, and they drove together in a privately produced car on privately maintained roads? In the USA, I pay income taxes, and I still have to pay for all of these things above (fees, fines, tolls, surcharges, sales tax...)

We can assume the doctor monkey is paying for his kid's school, but it's possible that doctor monkey also benefits indirectly from the other monkeys' kids education as well.

All the roads you drive on are toll roads? Here in Oregon none are, and when I was back East only some highways were toll roads. Surface streets are nearly all paid for through taxes AFAIK.

I don't get the severe anti-tax stance some folks have. Yes I want my taxes spent efficiently, but I absolutely recognize that I gain benefits from paying them. Even when some of those taxes go to poor people. Without a peaceful society nobody will care that much about computers and the 'net ;).

I admit I'm a bit biased, because I get Welfare myself. That is, the gov't gives me a fair amount of money to offset the interest I pay to the bank for my mortgage. My effective income tax rate is less than 10% so I probably get quite a lot more welfare than any really poor family does. What a world we live in.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#112

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

edblarney wrote: post #66

Tangokat wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you mind providing a source for 2)? In my experience you couldn't be more wrong.

Talk to an older Swede. If you're young, and talk mostly to young Swedes, it's a different story. Actually, one of the reasons that this may be 'contentious' is because of 'startup culture'. When I say 'business' - you might be thinking 'startup'. Surely - it's 'cool' among young people to be at a startup, doing some cool thing like 'games' or 'music'. But the attitude towards most business, by that I mean what is re…

You started talking about "anti-business and anti-entrepreneurial", now you moved the goalposts to "big business".

Yes Swedes don't worship people like Trump like Americans do. But people going into business (hairdressers, contract work, running a supermarket, startups) is very different.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#113

Post by zzzzzzzzzman » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:58 PM UTC

kartan wrote: post #101

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

> One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, A monkey can live for himself, in a modern society no human is an island. You need extremely complex systems on place: Communications, education, law, law enforcement, infrastructures, etc. Millions of human beings in a complex society are not 5 monkeys. I understand your point, but I think that it doesn't apply at this scale.

I greatly appreciate your accurate and civil response!

I think it is achievable at some scale. The right number of course is somewhere between 5 monkeys on an island, and 7 billion monkeys on a planet.

You could conceivably take your money, buy a boat, load it up with 20 years worth of solar panels, greenhouse materials, medicine, guns, etc... and you can boat out to a cold desolate rock in the ocean like Bouvet Island, and you can live a complete life of anarchy and no taxes, etc etc.

But this is an extreme example, and shouldn't be what you have to do to live a life that is 100% free of being coerced into paying for the systems that are present in modern society.

An equally extreme situation, though, is being forced to pay an ever-increasing portion of your income in taxes, fines, levies, fees, and surcharges to the government... so that it can subsidize the wrong technologies and human behaviors.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#114

Post by zzzzzzzzzman » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

ionised wrote: post #105

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

That other monkey is free to leave and go far away, and not reap the benefits afforded to the group of monkeys when they pool their assets.

I 100000% agree! The only issue is that on this Earth, far away = Antarctica, Bouvet Island, a barge in the ocean....

Surely there needs to be some middle ground where I can live in a relatively hospitable place without having to worry about being placed under surveillance and being forced to pay large income and property taxes ;)

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#115

Post by jackmaney » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #83

j-pb wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody is a neoliberal until they have to pay for their own hospital bill.

I am an American and I pay for all of my medical care privately, without insurance :)

You must be fortunate not to have any preexisting conditions or to not need any medical procedures that, without insurance, can easily cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#116

Post by kalleboo » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 4:01 PM UTC

krisroadruck wrote: post #75

3poundkilograms wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One monkey says to a group of other monkeys: "We all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have to feed the doctor monkey, the asphalt monkey and the teacher monkey, from whom we receive services." One monkey from the group, which just came back in his car from the doctor monkey with his daughter that goes to the local monkey school: "I refuse to give up my bananas!". Remember context. Full context is imp…

One monkey says to a group of other monkeys: "We all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have to pay for a 1.2 trillion banana fighter jet that doesnt work, and also to give bananas to people who aren't contributing any bananas at all" One monkey from the group, who makes 4 of the 5 bananas, and doesn't want a 1.2 trillion banana fighter jet notices that all the people who are clamoring to take bananas…

Naw that monkey runs the fighter jet manufacturing company, he's all for it and busy paying the lobbying monkeys to make sure the racket continues

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#117

Post by endless1234 » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

daenney wrote: post #62

wildmusings wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are mistaken. UberPOP is already not operational in Sweden. UberX is what's being targeted.

I don't believe so. UberX is not ridesharing, UberPOP is. Also, if I am mistaken, please point me to the source in the article that actually states that they're targeting UberX. The article explicitly mentions UberPOP, if it would affect X I'm fairly certain they would've mentioned that along the way. The fact that POP is not operational in Sweden at all doesn't mean it automatically targets X. UberPOP is just the ri…

UberPOP is what we have in Helsinki. You're able to split the fare with multiple users, whom you know, going the same route as you are. Imho actual ride sharing would be the "taxi" picking up random other people along the way and then the service billing everybody fairly in the end. With UberPOP fare splitting is just a convenience feature of the service, i.e. "instead of you giving me that 5 euro note for your share of this taxi ride, let's do it automatically".

Maybe pop works differently in places which have both it and X though. Those descriptions certainly make it seem like that.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#118

Post by dagw » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

nothrabannosir wrote: post #70

zzleeper wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. There is an econ paper that explains why (Xavier Gabaix's shrouded prices theory), but the idea is this: There are some consumers that are naive (tourists in this case) and you can exploit them (go to the airport, and wait until you get a naive guy). Now, suppose a competitor can find a way to educate consumers: you print pamphlets listing the true costs and hire someone to distribute them everywhere. Now…

Or just set up a taxi next to it for 2.5x the price? Or maybe force taxis at airports onto a centralised exchange with a big electronic comparison billboard that everyone can see? I get that something is preventing that, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. But what is? Can we fix that instead and make the market more accessible? If not, then regulate away, of course.

Or just set up a taxi next to it for 2.5x the price?

There's almost certainly a taxi next to it that only charges X, and all taxis are required to clearly post their prices in their windows. The taxi charging 3X is simply banking on the fact the enough people are operating with incomplete information and will just hop into the first taxi they see without fully understanding how the system works.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#119

Post by kryptiskt » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #7

Shivetya wrote: post #5

Sorry, but either regulate it as the taxi industry or force the taxi industry to be a profitless business as well. If being professional is defined by having a certificate or such then simply have these services require their drivers provide such certification. Honestly, just how many ways can we find to prevent innovation from disrupting the protected by daunting regulations from occurring? At times I am beginning t…

Taxi regulation in Sweden is very lax and it's trivial to become a certified taxi business and get a taxi license. Uber could have the paperwork taken care of by early next week if they wanted, they just doesn't want to comply with the few necessary regulations.

Uber does exist in Sweden, with a service that requires the drivers to have a taxi license. UberPop that was shut down didn't.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#120

Post by coldcode » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 4:04 PM UTC

justinator wrote: post #99

kalleboo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there's no way to opt-out of the benefits of a well-educated, well-protected society with good infrastructure. If we could send everyone who wants to opt out of taxes to some island somewhere, we would.

And if this monkey could emigrate to Sweden tomorrow and pay much higher taxes for much more collective benefits, you bet my monkey tail I would.

If only Sweden were in the tropics... this monkey not into freezing.