Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits • Hacker News Board

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#61

Post by zzzzzzzzzman » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:29 PM UTC

j-pb wrote: post #54

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

Because the banana was grown on the fields that the other monkeys paid for, transported on the roads that the other monkeys paid for and the monkey received it's education on how to get it's banana from a school that the other monkeys funded. If you live on a farm off the grid have solar power, collect your own rain water and don't ever leave your plot of land fine don't pay taxes. But if you want the niceties of civ…

"If you live on a farm off the grid...."

I agree, the monkey that does what you described shouldn't be forced to pay taxes.

But I am still confused as to why the monkey and his family can't attend private schools, drive on private roads, receive medical services from a private doctor, and donate any bananas he voluntarily decides to contribute to right the wrongs of his monkey island :)

In my opinion, the other monkeys that are trying to force him to subsidize other monkeys' consumption habits are just trying to collect rent from him!

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#62

Post by daenney » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:29 PM UTC

wildmusings wrote: post #40

daenney wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me." > I'm not necessarily a fan of Uber, but this is ridiculous. > If 'taxis' are legal in Sweden then there's no reason Uber should not be able to operate so long as they are obeying the laws. I think you've misunderstood what was said in the original article. This doesn…

You are mistaken. UberPOP is already not operational in Sweden. UberX is what's being targeted.

I don't believe so. UberX is not ridesharing, UberPOP is. Also, if I am mistaken, please point me to the source in the article that actually states that they're targeting UberX. The article explicitly mentions UberPOP, if it would affect X I'm fairly certain they would've mentioned that along the way.

The fact that POP is not operational in Sweden at all doesn't mean it automatically targets X. UberPOP is just the ride sharing service most people are familiar with so it makes sense for Reuters to use that as an example, as well as add to the appeal of their article. There are however other companies that do provide for-profit ride sharing services in Stockholm. This just means that there's now going to be a law that prohibits UberPOP and similar for-profit ride sharing services entirely, regardless of if they already operate or not.

As also noted by Uber itself, X is not ridesharing.

UberX is the most popular private car service that Uber has to offer. It's commonly referred to as the "low-cost option" for riders, it allows you to quickly arrive at your destination without breaking the bank.

To contrast with UberPOP

With UberPOP, you can share your UberX and split the fare with multiple users.

That's ride sharing.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#63

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:30 PM UTC

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

[deleted]

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#64

Post by nothrabannosir » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:30 PM UTC

wavefunction wrote: post #31

nothrabannosir wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

some private taxi drivers will prey on tourists by overpricing their services by 3x and waiting at airports. Since their rip-off prices are displayed right there in the window, it's fully legal. Tourists don't know the typical price of a taxi, and fresh off an airplane are not sure what the local currency rate is (Sweden isn't on the Euro), and hence get ripped off. Typically this should lead to more competition ther…

Taxi thugs? Thug means someone who intimidates with threats of violence to get their way. Why would any taxi-driver feel like upsetting the apple-cart?

Intimidating competitors. The taxi industry is notorious for this.

Of course it's only a few bad apples that ruin the basket, but it's not unheard of.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#65

Post by Bartweiss » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:31 PM UTC

nothrabannosir wrote: post #19

kalleboo wrote: post #3

So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me. For context, the taxi regulation in Sweden is very light. There is no medallion system limiting the number of cars, and no regulation of prices. You just need an extended driver's license, an approved taxi-meter (same as how grocery stores need their scales to be approved…

some private taxi drivers will prey on tourists by overpricing their services by 3x and waiting at airports. Since their rip-off prices are displayed right there in the window, it's fully legal. Tourists don't know the typical price of a taxi, and fresh off an airplane are not sure what the local currency rate is (Sweden isn't on the Euro), and hence get ripped off. Typically this should lead to more competition ther…

Taxi ranks at (wealthy) airports are almost never subject to market competition. To avoid crowding and crime, some number of drivers or companies get permission to pick people up at the airport, and everyone else is shut out. Other taxis can drop you off, but not pick up a return fare. Usually this comes with fixed prices to avoid extortion, but if it doesn't you get this oligopoly pricing.

Incidentally, this is part of the vehement objection to Uber - on-demand pickup still happens, which breaks the stranglehold on cab ranks.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#66

Post by edblarney » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:31 PM UTC

Tangokat wrote: post #20

edblarney wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So, they want to encourage ride-sharing in the original meaning - carpooling. Not the "taxi company in disguise" meaning. Sounds fair enough to me." I'm not necessarily a fan of Uber, but this is ridiculous. If 'taxis' are legal in Sweden then there's no reason Uber should not be able to operate so long as they are obeying the laws . Ostensibly, this is about a specific issue - distance travelled and the lack of abi…

Would you mind providing a source for 2)? In my experience you couldn't be more wrong.

Talk to an older Swede.

If you're young, and talk mostly to young Swedes, it's a different story.

Actually, one of the reasons that this may be 'contentious' is because of 'startup culture'.

When I say 'business' - you might be thinking 'startup'.

Surely - it's 'cool' among young people to be at a startup, doing some cool thing like 'games' or 'music'.

But the attitude towards most business, by that I mean what is really 99% of the private economy is still pernicious.

Cultural example - do you know the film 'Girl with the Dragon Tattoo' - the Swedish version? The film is about the follies and evil of an old Swedish noble/industrial family. In the film they are all portrayed as bad, they hate each other, they are greedy, one is a rapist/murderer. Arguably this could be 'populist' anywhere, but it's I think anecdotally relevant for a Nordic country. Across Europe 'business' remember, is the 'bourgeoisie' - i.e. one of the 'offending' classes of 'the revolution'. The view that 'rich people' are basically entirely get their wealth from the economic enslavement of the 'working people' is a cultural epitaph there - and across Europe, to varying degrees.

The idea that people can 'create things of value' an 'exchange them' and 'create jobs' - was not widely held. Wealth was a 'zero sum game' - some had it, other did not and that was it.

As further indirect support, I'll offer the rise of the Social Democrats during the early 20th century, who had enormous power (near total) and influence for decades - and become so entrenched that the were almost de-facto the nature of Swedish/Nordic (and to some extent European) political culture. This did not happen quite as much in the UK, and certainly not in Canada, Australia or the USA.

During the 1980's-1990's they underwent a series of reforms to undo some of the 'socialization of the economy' (same time as Thatcher, Reagan). Same thing happened in Germany in the 1990's, but on different terms.

Anyhow - 'startups among young people' - surely. And surely nowadays the government 'gets' that startups are 'good'. But the cultural aversion to 'big business', I believe, still exists if you factor in all generations, government, institutions etc...

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#67

Post by thlst » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

3poundkilograms wrote: post #50

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

One monkey says to a group of other monkeys: "We all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have to feed the doctor monkey, the asphalt monkey and the teacher monkey, from whom we receive services." One monkey from the group, which just came back in his car from the doctor monkey with his daughter that goes to the local monkey school: "I refuse to give up my bananas!". Remember context. Full context is imp…

That sounds like forcing a service (that you might not want) down your throat, and accusing you of stealing if you refuse to pay. It would be surprisingly better to let monkeys pay for what they want to use, instead of making every monkey pay for what they won't ever use.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#68

Post by zzzzzzzzzman » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

3poundkilograms wrote: post #50

zzzzzzzzzman wrote: post #42

"1) Cheating on taxes is quite literally stealing from every other person in the country. That being said I think there is a lot of small scale cheating going, especially for small cash-driven businesses." I disagree. One monkey says to a group of other monkeys, "we all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have and place it into a central banana disbursement fund". Then, another monkey from the group ref…

One monkey says to a group of other monkeys: "We all need to take one of the 5 bananas we individually have to feed the doctor monkey, the asphalt monkey and the teacher monkey, from whom we receive services." One monkey from the group, which just came back in his car from the doctor monkey with his daughter that goes to the local monkey school: "I refuse to give up my bananas!". Remember context. Full context is imp…

I appreciate your response and POV :)

Why can we not assume that the doctor monkey is operating a private medical practice, his daughter is sent to a private monkey school, and they drove together in a privately produced car on privately maintained roads?

In the USA, I pay income taxes, and I still have to pay for all of these things above (fees, fines, tolls, surcharges, sales tax...)

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#69

Post by Bartweiss » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:32 PM UTC

vasco wrote: post #34

zzleeper wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. There is an econ paper that explains why (Xavier Gabaix's shrouded prices theory), but the idea is this: There are some consumers that are naive (tourists in this case) and you can exploit them (go to the airport, and wait until you get a naive guy). Now, suppose a competitor can find a way to educate consumers: you print pamphlets listing the true costs and hire someone to distribute them everywhere. Now…

Except you could just put a billboard right there in the airport exit saying how much an average trip to the city center costs for very little money.

I'm pretty sure I've seen exactly this - information booths at airports saying "this is what a licensed cab looks like, this is the fare to downtown, don't be fooled". It's not universal, though, because you'd need to get rights to put up the sign.

Re: Sweden proposes ban on ride-sharing services that make profits

#70

Post by nothrabannosir » Thu, Dec 01, 2016, 3:33 PM UTC

zzleeper wrote: post #32

nothrabannosir wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

some private taxi drivers will prey on tourists by overpricing their services by 3x and waiting at airports. Since their rip-off prices are displayed right there in the window, it's fully legal. Tourists don't know the typical price of a taxi, and fresh off an airplane are not sure what the local currency rate is (Sweden isn't on the Euro), and hence get ripped off. Typically this should lead to more competition ther…

Not really. There is an econ paper that explains why (Xavier Gabaix's shrouded prices theory), but the idea is this: There are some consumers that are naive (tourists in this case) and you can exploit them (go to the airport, and wait until you get a naive guy). Now, suppose a competitor can find a way to educate consumers: you print pamphlets listing the true costs and hire someone to distribute them everywhere. Now…

Or just set up a taxi next to it for 2.5x the price? Or maybe force taxis at airports onto a centralised exchange with a big electronic comparison billboard that everyone can see?

I get that something is preventing that, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. But what is? Can we fix that instead and make the market more accessible?

If not, then regulate away, of course.