Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 106 posts

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#31

Post by jrockway »

Oh good, another list I'm on. I'm going to have to start making a list of the lists.

Bitcoin seems obviously like money to me. But I wonder when the IRS is going to start cracking down on other electronic money you can earn. Think about computer games where you can buy credits, or earn them by playing. That sounds like income tax evasion to me; you're getting paid in Green Rupees instead of US Dollars, but you should still be paying income tax on that! And don't forget about frequent flyer miles. (Which are not counted as income because you "can't" sell them, but anyone who reads flyertalk knows that's not the case.)

It's all very interesting. People have been using alternative currencies outside of the IRS's radar for quite a while, and they've mostly ignored them.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#32

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nullc wrote: post #28

So-- IRS seeks _all_ transaction records for all coinbase customers. Not just buying and selling Bitcoin but also people using their wallet services, which would mostly be users moving around their own funds (not a taxable event). They're doing this on the basis that there might be evidence of tax evasion in there somewhere. Which is plausible, I suppose. Thing is: All this same data was also emailed to the customers…

Material transactions are already, for the most part, reported. This action isn't putting special attention on Bitcoin ceteris paribus. It is bringing it into alignment with U.S. dollar custom and law.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#33

Post by oelmekki »

Chris2048 wrote: post #30
oelmekki wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it you live in a country where people are ok to see other people living off the street because they presumably "failed"? That's the only reason I can think of which would make it possible for charities to fit government action scale. Also, I wonder how local non profit organize against a nation wide invasion (not saying it's impossible, but you have to prepare for it, which costs money). I live in a country wh…

What country do you live in that's solved the healthcare and unemployment problem? > people who use what we all pay for, then try to not pay for their part by evading taxes But tax is not flat rate. The poorest often pay the least tax, but use public facilities the most; how is that "pay[ing] for their part"?

> What country do you live in that's solved the healthcare and unemployment problem?

What has unemployment to do here? Are you saying that with no taxes, there is no unemployment? (for reference, I live in France)

> how is that "pay[ing] for their part"?

This is exactly paying for their part: everybody feel their effort as the same as their neighbor. And if you're about to say that poor people are abusing that and stay poor on purpose: find me a poor person that refuses a billion dollar if you offer them. Or even who refuses to earn more than currently, for the matter.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#34

Post by eschaton »

Chris2048 wrote: post #30
oelmekki wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take it you live in a country where people are ok to see other people living off the street because they presumably "failed"? That's the only reason I can think of which would make it possible for charities to fit government action scale. Also, I wonder how local non profit organize against a nation wide invasion (not saying it's impossible, but you have to prepare for it, which costs money). I live in a country wh…

What country do you live in that's solved the healthcare and unemployment problem? > people who use what we all pay for, then try to not pay for their part by evading taxes But tax is not flat rate. The poorest often pay the least tax, but use public facilities the most; how is that "pay[ing] for their part"?

The poorest often pay the proportion of their income they can least afford to lose in taxes: A person who makes a million a year paying 50% is more able to afford it than a person making $10000 a year and paying 10%, because there's a nonzero floor to the cost of living. Learn some about diminishing marginal utility. (Also note that you need to consider all taxes, not just income taxes, when considering tax burden.)

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#35

Post by akvadrako »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #16
kybernetyk wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we allow WSJ submissions here if they don't want us to read their content? I mean sure, you can go the "click web, then the right Google result" route. But that's like submitting a link to Adobe's most recent Photoshop update and then tell people "you can download Photoshop for free by starting your Bittorent client". WSJ wants to hide behind a paywall. That's fine for them. But HN shouldn't be sending them tr…

I'm not sure what the complaint is here. The barrier to entry is literally clicking or tapping twice.

It only works a limited numbers of times per month and it makes some of us feel dirty, like riding without a ticket, even if you know you won't get checked.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#36

Post by ryaniscool »

jrockway wrote: post #31

Oh good, another list I'm on. I'm going to have to start making a list of the lists. Bitcoin seems obviously like money to me. But I wonder when the IRS is going to start cracking down on other electronic money you can earn. Think about computer games where you can buy credits, or earn them by playing. That sounds like income tax evasion to me; you're getting paid in Green Rupees instead of US Dollars, but you should…

In the linked article, the IRS is quoted as saying they are treating BitCoin like property. Essentially, they are looking to tax people who made a profit from selling Bitcoins using Coinbase.

They don't seem concerned with the currency aspect at all.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#37

Post by delegate »

pjc50 wrote: post #29
delegate wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. Taxes are the basis of state, which uses taxes to develop and maintain its capability to threaten you with violence if you dont't pay taxes. It's a recursion which has plagued the world for centuries. The whole system can in theory be replaced with non-profit investments funds, which crowdfund social projects. You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running thi…

> You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running things Those are the leaders, they're just 100% more self-appointed and unaccountable. Your whole scheme is just Bolshevism with the terminology changed.

> Your whole scheme is just Bolshevism with the terminology changed.

Bolshevism excludes private property and implements the dictatorship of the proletariat, which is a different form of government.

What I propose is a system in which normal people are involved in day-to-day politics - with their votes and their money.

The representative system that most 'democracies' implement today do so because until recently there was no technical alternative to electing people to run things for everyone else, simply because everyone else didn't have the technical means to participate.

Now we have the technical means in which society can be run in a much more decentralised way, people can be consulted in real time using a 'society app' and they can 'invest' into social projects that matter for them - like schools or roads and so on.

What I'm proposing is bringing democracy into the 21st century.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#38

Post by lojack »

patio11 wrote: post #14
throwawaydfsgs wrote: post #7

So how would one go about settling up with the IRS on this?

The short and useful answer is talk to an accountant. The longer and less useful answer is that it depends heavily on circumstances. Two relevant ones are "What sort of income do you have here?" and "How much are we talking about?" If we assume the answers are "You have capital gains because you happened to purchase some Bitcoin, they appreciated, and you sold them, but you weren't conceivably operating a business wh…

Any clue where the cutoff for declaration of capital gains lies?

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#39

Post by reddytowns »

ryaniscool wrote: post #36
jrockway wrote: post #31

Oh good, another list I'm on. I'm going to have to start making a list of the lists. Bitcoin seems obviously like money to me. But I wonder when the IRS is going to start cracking down on other electronic money you can earn. Think about computer games where you can buy credits, or earn them by playing. That sounds like income tax evasion to me; you're getting paid in Green Rupees instead of US Dollars, but you should…

In the linked article, the IRS is quoted as saying they are treating BitCoin like property. Essentially, they are looking to tax people who made a profit from selling Bitcoins using Coinbase. They don't seem concerned with the currency aspect at all.

The problem is that this is no dividing line. If after you receive bitcoin, the price of bitcoin goes up, and then you buy something with them, that is a taxable event.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#40

Post by delegate »

oelmekki wrote: post #27
delegate wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. Taxes are the basis of state, which uses taxes to develop and maintain its capability to threaten you with violence if you dont't pay taxes. It's a recursion which has plagued the world for centuries. The whole system can in theory be replaced with non-profit investments funds, which crowdfund social projects. You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running thi…

I take it you live in a country where people are ok to see other people living off the street because they presumably "failed"? That's the only reason I can think of which would make it possible for charities to fit government action scale. Also, I wonder how local non profit organize against a nation wide invasion (not saying it's impossible, but you have to prepare for it, which costs money). I live in a country wh…

>I take it you live in a country where people are ok to see other people living off the street because they presumably "failed"?

I live in Spain, there's no such thing here.

What I propose is for people to have the ability to specify what their taxes are spent on. I dislike it when government wastes tax money on useless or corrupt projects, military, police, surveillance and other such things, which I personally would not support if I had the choice.

I would invest that money in more schools, hospitals, etc.

This would change what we now call 'government' from raw money spenders into project managers who seek public funding.

Citizens can fund public projects from their phones and get involved in the debates, votes, etc.

That's real-time democracy - no need for elections or politicians, just technocrats who monitor the needs of society and ask people for funding.

Think about it for a while and you'll notice lots of positive consequences of such a system.

Post reply on HN