Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 106 posts

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#21

Post by delegate »

mindcrime wrote: post #19

The solution to this is obvious: eliminate the IRS. And the income tax. And most of the federal government. Spin off the actually useful bits as private non-profit foundations (or possibly even for-profit companies depending on the scenario) and let them earn their own keep based on the value they provide. A sufficiently small government can be funded without an income tax, as history shows us.

Of course. Taxes are the basis of state, which uses taxes to develop and maintain its capability to threaten you with violence if you dont't pay taxes.

It's a recursion which has plagued the world for centuries.

The whole system can in theory be replaced with non-profit investments funds, which crowdfund social projects.

You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running things (by guarding their investments) similarily to how they now waste time on Facebook.

But good luck changing anything without a nuclear apocalypse :) There are a lot of people who like the system the way it is and they won't give it up because us idealists want a better world for their children..

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#22

Post by throwawayqwer »

Say someone bought Bitcoins from Coinbase and transferred them to their own wallet outside of Coinbase. They haven't sold them, so there's no taxes to pay and nothing to report to the IRS, right?

How is the IRS going to know the difference between that situation, where they have done nothing wrong, and someone who sold them outside of Coinbase and didn't pay taxes on it?

Are they just going to audit everyone over some threshold, or are they going to use this information in existing investigations (or in conjunction with other red flags)

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#23

Post by mschuster91 »

patio11 wrote: post #14
throwawaydfsgs wrote: post #7

So how would one go about settling up with the IRS on this?

The short and useful answer is talk to an accountant. The longer and less useful answer is that it depends heavily on circumstances. Two relevant ones are "What sort of income do you have here?" and "How much are we talking about?" If we assume the answers are "You have capital gains because you happened to purchase some Bitcoin, they appreciated, and you sold them, but you weren't conceivably operating a business wh…

> If you're talking about mountains of money, on the other hand... expect rather less leniency

Well, according to Wikipedia, you can at least declare income from illegal activities, so that the feds can't jail you for tax evasion in addition to the crime itself. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_of_illegal_income_in_...

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#24

Post by mindcrime »

delegate wrote: post #21
mindcrime wrote: post #19

The solution to this is obvious: eliminate the IRS. And the income tax. And most of the federal government. Spin off the actually useful bits as private non-profit foundations (or possibly even for-profit companies depending on the scenario) and let them earn their own keep based on the value they provide. A sufficiently small government can be funded without an income tax, as history shows us.

Of course. Taxes are the basis of state, which uses taxes to develop and maintain its capability to threaten you with violence if you dont't pay taxes. It's a recursion which has plagued the world for centuries. The whole system can in theory be replaced with non-profit investments funds, which crowdfund social projects. You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running thi…

There are a lot of people who like the system the way it is and they won't give it up because us idealists want a better world for their children

It really is an old argument. The arrogance of thinking that a small handful of elites should "run things" for the stupid commoners dates back at least as far as Plato's era and the idea of the "philosopher king".

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#25

Post by rebuilder »

throwawayqwer wrote: post #22

Say someone bought Bitcoins from Coinbase and transferred them to their own wallet outside of Coinbase. They haven't sold them, so there's no taxes to pay and nothing to report to the IRS, right? How is the IRS going to know the difference between that situation, where they have done nothing wrong, and someone who sold them outside of Coinbase and didn't pay taxes on it? Are they just going to audit everyone over som…

I guess we'll find out in due time what the IRS is going to do.

As for your example, it seems to hinge on whether you're required to report holdings or just capital gains to the IRS.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#26

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

mindcrime wrote: post #19

The solution to this is obvious: eliminate the IRS. And the income tax. And most of the federal government. Spin off the actually useful bits as private non-profit foundations (or possibly even for-profit companies depending on the scenario) and let them earn their own keep based on the value they provide. A sufficiently small government can be funded without an income tax, as history shows us.

And what pays for infrastructure?

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#27

Post by oelmekki »

delegate wrote: post #21
mindcrime wrote: post #19

The solution to this is obvious: eliminate the IRS. And the income tax. And most of the federal government. Spin off the actually useful bits as private non-profit foundations (or possibly even for-profit companies depending on the scenario) and let them earn their own keep based on the value they provide. A sufficiently small government can be funded without an income tax, as history shows us.

Of course. Taxes are the basis of state, which uses taxes to develop and maintain its capability to threaten you with violence if you dont't pay taxes. It's a recursion which has plagued the world for centuries. The whole system can in theory be replaced with non-profit investments funds, which crowdfund social projects. You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running thi…

I take it you live in a country where people are ok to see other people living off the street because they presumably "failed"? That's the only reason I can think of which would make it possible for charities to fit government action scale. Also, I wonder how local non profit organize against a nation wide invasion (not saying it's impossible, but you have to prepare for it, which costs money).

I live in a country where we're not ok seeing people in the street and we're not ok seeing sick people who can't pay for medecine. I'm ok with paying taxes for those. What I'm not ok with is having people who use what we all pay for, then try to not pay for their part by evading taxes. If taxes is a problem for you, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of countries where you can move and that you will find adequate.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#28

Post by nullc »

So-- IRS seeks _all_ transaction records for all coinbase customers. Not just buying and selling Bitcoin but also people using their wallet services, which would mostly be users moving around their own funds (not a taxable event).

They're doing this on the basis that there might be evidence of tax evasion in there somewhere. Which is plausible, I suppose.

Thing is: All this same data was also emailed to the customers (as coinbase does email notification), likewise for their competitors.

Which means that the IRS could likely get the same data but more comprehensively by simply demanding Google turn over every single email for every user. I can guarantee this would include much more evidence of tax evasion.

So why is a coinbase dragnet a viable demand where a Gmail one-- which would include the same data plus even more tax evasion evidence-- not one? Or is it simply the case that the Gmail demand will show up after this one clears the courts? :)

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#29

Post by pjc50 »

delegate wrote: post #21
mindcrime wrote: post #19

The solution to this is obvious: eliminate the IRS. And the income tax. And most of the federal government. Spin off the actually useful bits as private non-profit foundations (or possibly even for-profit companies depending on the scenario) and let them earn their own keep based on the value they provide. A sufficiently small government can be funded without an income tax, as history shows us.

Of course. Taxes are the basis of state, which uses taxes to develop and maintain its capability to threaten you with violence if you dont't pay taxes. It's a recursion which has plagued the world for centuries. The whole system can in theory be replaced with non-profit investments funds, which crowdfund social projects. You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running thi…

> You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running things

Those are the leaders, they're just 100% more self-appointed and unaccountable. Your whole scheme is just Bolshevism with the terminology changed.

Re: Court Rules IRS Can Seek Information on Bitcoin Customers

#30

Post by Chris2048 »

oelmekki wrote: post #27
delegate wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. Taxes are the basis of state, which uses taxes to develop and maintain its capability to threaten you with violence if you dont't pay taxes. It's a recursion which has plagued the world for centuries. The whole system can in theory be replaced with non-profit investments funds, which crowdfund social projects. You dont even have to elect 'leaders', because citizens will be involved full time in running thi…

I take it you live in a country where people are ok to see other people living off the street because they presumably "failed"? That's the only reason I can think of which would make it possible for charities to fit government action scale. Also, I wonder how local non profit organize against a nation wide invasion (not saying it's impossible, but you have to prepare for it, which costs money). I live in a country wh…

What country do you live in that's solved the healthcare and unemployment problem?

> people who use what we all pay for, then try to not pay for their part by evading taxes

But tax is not flat rate. The poorest often pay the least tax, but use public facilities the most; how is that "pay[ing] for their part"?

Post reply on HN