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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

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Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#571

Post by Natsu »

kLeeIsDead wrote: post #569
Natsu wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. I've done straight-up factory work, i.e. manual labor as well as IT. Maybe I just have a good company, but I'd much rather do this than ever go back to factory work, even if the pay were better in the factory job.

Yeah, I may be eating my words in a few years but I figure I should at least try it out before going down the code monkey rabbit hole.

If you can limit it to normal shifts and control overtime, it's not so bad. Also, it depends on whether working conditions are reasonable or not. My company could manage essentially none of that. Working conditions were extreme heat near a furnace (we had fans...), working hours were completely dictated by customer schedules and overtime was frequently required.

All of that added up to a perfect storm of awful working conditions. I was motivated to work as hard as possible simply so I could get the hell out of there every night.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#572

Post by Fuffidish »

scalio wrote: post #449
Fuffidish wrote: post #429

I think it's not true that there is no more work to be done. We are just stuck with the idea that jobs come with growth, and that only jobs that yield growth should be paying salaries. I believe if we sat down and talked we could find hundreds of jobs around us, it's just the money that is lacking, if we could access even a little percentage of the huge money spent in wars, entertainment, gambling,... Many cities, fo…

You've hit the nail on the head. Some jobs come from unnecessary complexity in the system (civil servants, accounting people); some jobs exist because they're too complicated for machines (for now); some are just plainly unneeded (stock brokers, hedge fund managers and the like). As AI and robotics advance, progressively more classes of workers will suddenly find themselves superfluous. What will they do then? My big…

Aside for intellect, I wouldn't mind trading some desk time for time spent in the forest cleaning / doing research or anything useful...

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#573

Post by JamesBarney »

snrplfth wrote: post #519
JamesBarney wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which regulations do you think are the greatest impediment to hiring?

Here's a few examples: - High implicit labour prices. When you add up all the required costs to hire somebody (minimum wage, healthcare costs, payroll taxes, etc.) it's no surprise that there's going to be some portion of the population which can find no work at that price. - Unnaturally high costs in the most productive areas. Cities with lots of jobs will naturally have high costs, but a lot of regulations, like zo…

I agree that your zoning/NIMBY laws could be improved through federals laws, and licensing could and accreditation could be limited.

But on your point about implicit labour prices I have to disagree. At least with the costs listed. The implicit labor costs increase the de facto minimum wage. But payroll taxes are 7.5%, federal minimum wage is currently $7.25/hr, fine for not covering healthcare costs ends up being ~ 1$ an hour. So we end up with a de facto minimum wage of $8.80/hr.

This means that it only prevents jobs that produce less that ~$9/hr of value. Which I don't think many people would classify as a "good" job.

But it also has all of the effects both positive and negative of a minimum wage. The negatives are that any potential jobs that generate less than $8.80/hr wouldn't be created, but it also brings the positives which are that any employees that generate more than $8.80/hr an value but who due to negotiating power would have made less get a raise.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#574

Post by JamesBarney »

pdonis wrote: post #557
JamesBarney wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which regulations do you think are the greatest impediment to hiring?

snrplfth gave some good examples. Here are a couple more: - Various laws and regulations that micromanage the hiring process, e.g., forcing employers to show evidence that it is "fair". - Various laws and regulations that make it difficult to fire a worker even if they are genuinely unproductive.

- Various laws and regulations that micromanage the hiring process, e.g., forcing employers to show evidence that it is "fair".

I'd definitely like to know more about this. The only big issue I see with this is not allowing IQ tests to be used.

- Various laws and regulations that make it difficult to fire a worker even if they are genuinely unproductive.

I live in an at will state(Texas), and it doesn't seem like our job market is that much better than states with more onerous firing restrictions. Are the restrictions at the Federal level?

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#575

Post by Practicality »

zcoyle wrote: post #197
Practicality wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, but it doesn't need to be useless labor. In the town I grew up in we had automated trash collection for a few years. The town eventually voted to get rid of the automated trash collectors because of jobs . Seriously. People that did those jobs HATED their jobs. Now a group of people have a job again that they hate. Surely we can find something that fulfills their desire to be helpful without a completely unnec…

Just curious - how did the automated trash collection work?

There was still a driver, but all the bins and cans were ID tagged and had weight sensors installed. This was earlier technology (a lot of cities have similar things now), but it was basically a locking hydraulic lift that coupled with an interface on the cans. That picked the cans up over the truck and inverted them. So it just dumped things into the truck.

So there were no workers, just a driver.

Because of the jobs issue, they went back to having two men that pick up the cans by hand. But because everyone had the new cans with all the extra hardware now the work was harder. It was the worst of both worlds until they issued everyone new regular trash cans a few years later.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#576

Post by jokoon »

euyyn wrote: post #566
jokoon wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot of drug related prison sentence, and riots do happen in the US in some neighborhood, and it makes the news. Not to mention the gun violence and recent prison riots. What I was saying is that if you want peaceful streets, you have to care for the poor, if not things will get messy. To me things are not really peaceful in the ghettos. High welfare helps "taming" the problems poverty creates.

Not sure what are you trying to say with the drug fact. Or how riots in a prison would imply the welfare state doesn't derive from morality: In a prison you don't have to work, nor pay for your healthcare. So if anything it shows the opposite of your point.

I was saying people escape their situation either with violence or by breaking the law.
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