Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall fro…
Well when I interviewed in Japan for a traditional bigco, they asked me whether I was committed to working there for the next 40+ years of my life. So there's that, in other parts of the world.
What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
551–560 of 576 posts
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#552Earlier quoted context omitted.
> invest your full time into raising and educating your own children - probably the most rational choice, with the least value to the rest of society. That seems like a strange way to describe preparing the next generation. :D Don't most people consider raising and educating their children to be one of the most valuable things to be done for society? eg having more knowledgeable/skilled/clueful young is better "for e…
If that's the case, then your specialized economic role in society is purely as a professional breeder. Other people would need to see that you are contributing your fair share by raising your own family, and be willing to supply you with food, shelter, etc in recognition of this. In fact people generally don't recognize this value. If I thought to myself, "That's a fair division of labor - I'll do the work, and inst…
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#553Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#554Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall fro…
I am on the fence on this one. On the one hand I completely agree that we should be able to treat it as a 9-5 job. On the other hand, I have worked with people like that and I far prefer working with those with some passion in the field. Our field is constantly changing and it requires that we keep up with the trends (not unlike medicine or other well paid careers). Its a pain in the arse having to explain a better a…
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#555Earlier quoted context omitted.
If that's the case, then your specialized economic role in society is purely as a professional breeder. Other people would need to see that you are contributing your fair share by raising your own family, and be willing to supply you with food, shelter, etc in recognition of this. In fact people generally don't recognize this value. If I thought to myself, "That's a fair division of labor - I'll do the work, and inst…
Heh Heh Heh, it really sounds like you don't like kids. ;)
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#556Earlier quoted context omitted.
the value of work drops below the level at which a human can subsist on it I agree with this analysis; the question becomes: how do we value a person's contribution to society, if not by someone's willingness to pay their wages? I hope there is a solution in advanced tools for economic cooperation... imagine 90% of the population living off something like "GoFundMe for artists and educators". If we can't or won't fin…
"Contribution to society" is the main problem that needs a paradigm shift - if we look at 1900, then a system where economic subsistence is directly linked to a measurable contribution to society (whether by wages paid in capitalism or full participation in a collective society or whatever) makes sense. However, if we look at year 2100 then it seems rather clear that a majority of population will not ever be able to…
I think humane is the key word here. We are human, after all. It's human that you would take someone in to your home and feed and care for them, though they might never repay you.
It's not human that you would take 10 people into your home and support them indefinitely while they contribute nothing, and then support their children, their children's children, etc forever.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#557Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Why doesn't all of that work turn into jobs? Because the market that is supposed to match workers with jobs is highly inefficient. There are a number of possible causes of this, but I think a major one is regulation, which greatly increases the cost of hiring a worker. Any market with large transaction costs is going to be inefficient. That's one of those "economics 101" things that many people tend to forget.
Which regulations do you think are the greatest impediment to hiring?
- Various laws and regulations that micromanage the hiring process, e.g., forcing employers to show evidence that it is "fair".
- Various laws and regulations that make it difficult to fire a worker even if they are genuinely unproductive.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#558Earlier quoted context omitted.
For some people it's a passion. For others it's a job. IMO anyone who is passionate about their work will have greater success and generally be more innovative. I'm sure this is true across all career paths not just engineering. In software there is no one right answer, the passion comes into play when you look for the most elegant or most performant solution, that may not be obvious on the first pass. This makes it…
> IMO anyone who is passionate about their work will have greater success and generally be more innovative. That is true, I don't dispute it. What I dislike is the shunning of those who want to do it just as their job. Also, passion comes in different forms. For example, I am "passionate" (as much as I hate the term) about delivering reliable, secure and well-documented products. Sometimes a project will be focused o…
Usually I hire for passionate people, and usually it isn't because we need 80-hour workweeks. Usually it's just because the output is often better, they notice more mistakes, take more initiative, and bond with their teammates more.
However, in this case, suddenly we had to switch from, "It's a 30-hour per week project," to, "It's an 80-hour per week project," and because most of the team was deeply passionate about it, everything was fine and everyone continued to show up and do fantastic work until we completed the project.
We had two team members who refused to stay more than the 30 hours per week we projected at the start. Even if we offered them more money, they wouldn't do it, because they just didn't want to. Work-life balance, etc. But it was okay, because both were in non-critical roles. So we let them go and continued without them.
Had one of our hires in a critical role been "not passionate", we would've failed the project. But we didn't, because I made certain that when we hired the most critical roles, we hired for passion as much as anything else.
We were on-site in a foreign country. So the options if there were no passionate people to hire would've been, "Stay 9 weeks instead of 3 weeks in a foreign country, for 3x the cost, and do it in 30-hour weeks," or, "Give up."
Fortunately for me, I suppose, there were and are people passionate about our business, mission, and industry available for hire.
You don't need passionate people for everything. I prefer dispassionate hires for repetitive roles that need steadiness and regularity. If we need a guy to clock in every Monday morning at 7 AM and clock out by 4 PM and do the same work every day and do it consistently, that's a role where we don't need "passion", and where passion would even get in the way (passionate people want to get more involved, they want more tasks and assignments, they want promotions, etc. Great for some roles, but not for the repetitive grinder roles).
But, yes. There is a distinct need for passionate people. There is a market demand for them. It isn't just "Company X is cheap and wants twice the work for half the pay."
Sometimes you want the guy who's going to do it "just as their job." Sometimes you want the guy who's going to do it as a personal mission, as a great undertaking to accomplish.
It depends on the role, the project, and the hiring manager. But that's market forces for you - different people, looking for different things, end up in different places, and command different positions, rates, and lifestyles. It's the free market. And it allows us to do things we could not if we were all forced to adhere to one single way of doing things. This is a very good thing.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#559Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think they exist because of morals. If you want a country that is thriving, lower classes should have a good living standard. The lower class is the basis of any country. Even if you have very smart people at the top, they can't do a lot if the people under them can't count or have poor health. I believe that if you set a good minimum standard, it will trickle up. Also if you don't want riots in the streets,…
Universal free healthcare exists in Europe and not in the US, and I don't see any riots caused by it. Riots were not the reason it was established in Europe either. Same with education. You can argue that it's economically beneficial for the higher classes in Europe, or convenient for the politicians. But even if it's the case (which is anything but obvious), that doesn't change the historical origin of those policie…
What I was saying is that if you want peaceful streets, you have to care for the poor, if not things will get messy. To me things are not really peaceful in the ghettos. High welfare helps "taming" the problems poverty creates.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#560Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is not the same as resolving the Great Depression. The goal is to create jobs that do work that is not getting done; not creating faux-jobs to feed people.
I don't think the author of the original article would agree with that goal. The problem with "creating jobs" is that someone (the government) has to decide (for its citizens) what kind of work is worth doing. The no-longer-needed workers are then forced into those non-essential jobs to earn their right for bare survival. They won't have time to do what they think is important. The underlying assumption is that unpai…
Whether it's a New Deal style public works program, or the new car plant opening that isn't yet fully automated because the government gave them tax breaks, it's makework and a distraction from what people would do if they could work their vocations.