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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

aeon.co

401–410 of 576 posts

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limitless is not quite right: at some point, the value of work drops below the level at which a human can subsist on it. Of course, if we take away that constraint through some means, like for example basic income, then the same problem remains in a different form; the value of the work drops below the level that a human can be bothered to do it. Because this minimum exists, there is indeed a finite amount of work, a…

the value of work drops below the level at which a human can subsist on it I agree with this analysis; the question becomes: how do we value a person's contribution to society, if not by someone's willingness to pay their wages? I hope there is a solution in advanced tools for economic cooperation... imagine 90% of the population living off something like "GoFundMe for artists and educators". If we can't or won't fin…

If we can't or won't find such an answer, we then have the question: how many lives are we willing to subsidize who are contributing, by our best measures, a net negative to society?

If you are posing this question from the implicit position as being one of those who are a net positive, reflect on how trivially chance could intervene and turn you into a net negative.

I imagine a future where 90% of the population must become shills for themselves to make a living, and I do not like it.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I resent the idea that my surplus labour is anyone's but mine to spend. Certainly you could create infinite amounts of "paid" makework but in the end it amounts to keeping a system going for its own sake, and wasting people's potential by allocating them "dig a hole and fill it in" jobs when they could be being creative.

This is not the same as resolving the Great Depression. The goal is to create jobs that do work that is not getting done; not creating faux-jobs to feed people.

I don't think the author of the original article would agree with that goal.

The problem with "creating jobs" is that someone (the government) has to decide (for its citizens) what kind of work is worth doing. The no-longer-needed workers are then forced into those non-essential jobs to earn their right for bare survival. They won't have time to do what they think is important.

The underlying assumption is that unpaid work is somehow worthless to society. And that people cannot decide for themselves how the spend the time freed up by automation.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no need for additional construction to meet housing demand. In the continental US there are something like 6 empty units for every homeless person in the country. In turn this means there is no pent up demand for building materials, so putting people to work in forestry, quarry, cement, steel, etc is also a non-starter. Global food surplus indicates there is no pressing need to put additional people to work…

There are empty houses, but not in places where people want to live. There is absolutely a housing shortage in popular metropolitan areas (take your pick) . If there wasn't, then prices wouldn't be so high.

Why aren't we building down?

Each plot owns the land beneath, yes?

So build downwards if zoning prohibits building up.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#404

I agree with the characterization of investment bankers and hedge fund managers as 'gangsters'. I'm tired of hearing these people rationalize their work as being 'to allocate capital efficiently' - Their real job description is 'to dilute real value and centralize capital'. These people don't create jobs; they transfer jobs from small businesses to big corporations. Those big corporations gain market share not by off…

> small businesses to big corporations. What's wrong with that? I want a job that pays well, I don't care how many people share ownership or how large the separate units of ownership are.

Being a business owner is much more lucrative than being an employee. Unfortunately, because of the stranglehold they have on the media, corporations are making it almost impossible for people to start their own businesses to compete (relative to before) so there are fewer opportunities for people to make real money.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#405

The essay opens on a horrible false dichotomy. No, full employment alone won't solve the problems of inequality that the essay very capably outlines. But full employment may be necessary anyway , because having the sense of being needed and being useful may be an important factor to many people's well-being. Full employment is really just another way of saying that everyone can get this sense of being needed/useful v…

The falseness is around working a shit job as a means to realizing purpose. Why can't we realize purpose through exploring life on our own terms?

because advertising?

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the false dichotomy? Can't someone designate a certain amount of time of their day to work, and focus on other things in the remaining hours? I love writing software, but that does not mean I don't love other things. Years ago I lived and breathed software. That's not the case anymore. I'd much rather help my daughter with her homework than read about the latest uber nifty JavaScript transpiler that will change m…

> Working is a means to bring in some cash that enables me to enjoy other things in life. Because you work mainly for the money is why I would not want to work with you. Not because you like other things.

So what are you doing it for then?

To satisfy a political agenda?

Because you're a child looking for fun? (And will create yet another cookie-cutter framework named something childish.)

To satisfy a need for validation because you aren't an adult?

To make great products? (so someone else can make money.)

Because it's new and shiny and trendy and you need to keep up with the Jones's?

Why is an experienced coder so much more efficient than an inexperienced coder? Because they have learned many infrastructures, frameworks, and algorithms, have learned through experience not to make certain mistakes like over-complicating a problem or seeking clarity to a problem prior to coding it and thus understand the cost of requirements, and have picked up good design habitations like divide and conquer, coding without making assumptions, or multi-tiered architectures.

Most Managers don't understand the foundation of good software and great IT infrastructure are solid requirements. That requires a solid investment, like a building foundation, in analyzing the business; great managers know enough about a particular business that they can spot the mistakes analysts make in building requirements and vet them so they don't change in major ways. Do colleges teach any of this? No.

When Changing requirements meets improper planning and tight project budgets (which may be tight because the company is in trouble, or may be tight because the Project Manager is incompetent), it means over-working staff to hit those changes which produces cognitive pollution. That pollutes the code base with too many assumptions, and pollutes the staff's minds with bad habitations and expectations. Eventually like any pollution, it builds up until it becomes terminal; developers quit, the cost of making any change becomes terminal for the code base, and so forth. We've all seen it. More importantly you take a developer who's worked a 9-5, then spend 2 hours a night for the last 10 years learning advanced mathematics, or low-level compiler design, or other things that really create good habits and techniques, and you literally cannot introduce them to that environment because the environment won't be able to value them; it can't see through the pollution.

The tautology simply is the overtime exemption. If you don't have staff clocking in and out, there's not a chance in hell of you ever figuring out how much time it takes to do any project, which in turn, feeds the tautology. Very simple question to ask at an interview "Do you track the hours of your software developers?" "Well no." "Why would I want to work at a company, overtime-exempt no less, when the management has no idea how to estimate the hours consumed for a project?". We get into concepts like "We practice scrum and estimate the story points based upon"; you sound like a 5-year old when you start talking that kind of jargon.

The pollution sloshes around in the talent pool, and companies end up with poisoned projects because of it.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#407
post #79

We're there already. There are vast numbers of people who cannot make an economic contribution large enough to cover their costs. Education won't help. Teach a human how to do something, and you have one human who can do it. Teach a computer how to do something, and you can have as many computers as needed doing it. The US has already hit "peak school" in terms of economic benefit. About half of college graduates tak…

So what are suggesting for when the vast majority of job sectors vanish? "Everybody relax and wait for the coffin?" When there's nothing to do anymore in the traditional sense, we receive an opportunity: millions, possibly billions of intelligent beings with nothing to do. Until they realize that they've got a whole to do, inside themselves. The brain is a magnificent thing that most people never really get to explore in their lifetimes. However, such exploration can only happen in tandem with education, otherwise there is nothing to explore.

The jobcalypse would give us the time needed to become better humans instead of better marginally intelligent machines. Make music, draw, sow, be creative. Lovingly tend to your garden. Develop crazy new theories about stuff and discuss them with like-minded individuals. Spend weeks on end in a library, not because you need the knowledge, but because you suddenly took a fancy to ancient Nordic literature. Come out to find that other people are interested in the subject and teach them. What about the meaning of life, the universe, and everything? Are we going to find that by watching TV all day because "education won't help"?

There is stuff do. Lots of it. It's in our heads.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#408

When the steam machine was invented, it seriously disrupted Europe where most of people were working in the fields. Some people rebelled and destroyed these machines who "stole their jobs". Some thinkers thought it would be the end of work. There was a long and difficult transition period, but in the end, they were wrong. People moved to cities and did different jobs. New jobs. It will be the same over and over again…

Better technology did not make more better jobs for horses.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#409
post #187

I agree with the characterization of investment bankers and hedge fund managers as 'gangsters'. I'm tired of hearing these people rationalize their work as being 'to allocate capital efficiently' - Their real job description is 'to dilute real value and centralize capital'. These people don't create jobs; they transfer jobs from small businesses to big corporations. Those big corporations gain market share not by off…

I don't think people rationalize it like that. I think they rationalize it as "I can make a lot of money here so I will". The only way it gets better if you can disincentivize people from acting in self-interest which doesn't really work in a capitalist society.

Maybe, but I think they should. That's what it means to have a conscience.

I worked for a major gambling (sports betting) corporation as a software engineer (for 6 months). The job was enjoyable (and extremely well paid) but it was obviously bad for society. I don't have a problem admitting that what I did was evil. I was a small fish, but it's no excuse.

Essentially, I took money from people who were not as smart as me. Maybe I caused people to lose their homes, maybe they got divorced or maybe some even committed suicide (there were stories in the office). I think it's important to acknowledge these things and try to fix them (by quitting, for example).

You can always rationalize that people are responsible for their own actions, but when you are guilty of manipulating people's minds, I don't think it's reasonable to do so.

Sometimes you do have to do a little bit for the common good.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest labor need in the next 40 years will be caring for the elderly. When my father was out of the hospital after an operation and needed live in care it was insanely difficult to find at any cost. This is work that cannot be automated.

After watching Big Hero 6, I'm convinced that even that work could be automated.

??? Sarcasm?

What in Big Hero Six says anything about the tractability of automating elderly care in the real world?

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