The World Economic Forum estimates tech advances will destroy 5 to 7 million jobs in the next four years alone. In the coming years, Universal Basic Income will sound less and less fanciful after hordes of workers become completely unemployable through no fault of their own. And we aren't just talking about low skilled jobs anymore but white collar, professional and even creative jobs are all on the chopping block.
What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
281–290 of 576 posts
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
Snide comments like this do nothing to promote constructive discussion. Please post civilly or just don't.
This should be aimed at me just as much then. My comment was more snide if anything. Also, I disagree, irony has its place and one of them is to poke fun at commonly held but profoundly mistaken beliefs that result in widespread suffering. Even if that has a high chance of offending people who don't like smart ass comments chipping away at the pedestal holding up their privilege. I'm sure you meant well, and I'm not…
Agreed. Though to be honest the political alignment doesn't matter to me so much. I see so much acrimony on both sides which I've tried to push back against in general. I'm sure I unconsciously push back on one side more than another, but I have tried to be even handed and civil (as you have, and I thank you for that) when I do so.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#283When there are no more jobs that need to be done, we will invent something new and create new jobs. No one would have imagined 50 years ago that so many people would be software developers, designers, game developers, etc... Innovation builds on innovation
Sure, the nature of work isn't static. Before there were permanent settlements, people hunted and gathered. Then we started agriculture, then construction and this leads to writing and scholarship. These articles are simply bemoaning change, but change is making us stronger.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#284When the steam machine was invented, it seriously disrupted Europe where most of people were working in the fields.
Some people rebelled and destroyed these machines who "stole their jobs". Some thinkers thought it would be the end of work.
There was a long and difficult transition period, but in the end, they were wrong. People moved to cities and did different jobs. New jobs.
It will be the same over and over again.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you serious? Knowledge workers have it easy . It's hard to get here, but once we're here it's a great gig. We're paid well, we're in demand, and there's a robust freelancing sector to our industries, be it software, legal, medical, engineering, or whatever. That link describes a call center worker as a knowledge worker. That's absolute nonsense. You could, in theory, argue that a call center worker is about manag…
This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall fro…
I thought the call-center example was dumb too, but he got his point across. What you describe is the way I read it as well.
That's why I don't think I'm going to pursue a career in software engineering despite doing it as a hobby since a young age. I think there'd be some irreversible damage to my brain if I used something I've liked and identified with for my whole life as a means to do something I hate. To me it seems like a form of self-induced brainwashing. I'll stick with blue collar jobs. The pay is not nearly as good, but my mind can be free.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#286Earlier quoted context omitted.
The whole "computers can do anything" theme in the original post and the comments is borderline retarded and describing a mythical state always one or two decades in the future. Teaching a computer to do anything is fucking HARD. And most of the time the problems are just unsolvable. Sure you see cool demos like one that can cook for you. That shit is awesome. So uhhh... where are they? They're demos and proofs of co…
Ya. Whenever anyone talks about 'the singularity' (i.e. computer consciousness) I usually respond with "get your bot to make me a goddam ham sandwich and clean my toilet!" - then we can talk! But let's avoid calling people 'retarded', eh :)
Of course a robot could do those things. Those are very easy things to do. The problem is, you wouldn't want to pay thousands of dollars for a robot to make you a sandwich or clean your toilet because those are things you can easily do yourself for free. And there's no economy of scale to offset the cost, because it's just doing it for only you.
How about "get your bot to build my microprocessors" or "get your bot to route my package through a warehouse" or "get your bot to weld a car"? There you can get robots to do amazing things, and they can cost whatever the company wants to charge because those robots are making money. If a robot can build a modern CPU, it could clean your toilet. That's not the problem.
Even still, there are household robots that are fairly common. I've got one running upstairs right now. It's called a Roomba.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#287Maybe a better approach is how can we spend the surplus labour? There are lots of things I see need doing looking around my neighbourhood - public parks need cleaning up, old houses could be torn down and make some nice new ones, old roads could be fixed. Probably stacks of other things. Maybe some creative accounting will enable us to do these things? I know national parks near me have great paths that were built in…
I agree with this sentiment. There is a lot of work that needs doing. There are also a lot of parents out there with young children who could use a nanny. There's a need for more therapists, or just people to talk to. There's a lot of work that needs doing. There's an abundance of people to do the work, and I feel like we have plenty of natural resources. It seems to me that we could build housing for everyone, we ha…
There are a lot of musicians, playwrights, authors, and visual artists of various stripes who would love to practice their craft full time but work crappy jobs to pay the bills.
And don't even get me started on large-scale planet-care projects— is there a way we can pay people to reclaim destroyed farmland, to grow things locally and organically, replant forests, study and clean up the ocean garbage patches, etc etc.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you serious? Knowledge workers have it easy . It's hard to get here, but once we're here it's a great gig. We're paid well, we're in demand, and there's a robust freelancing sector to our industries, be it software, legal, medical, engineering, or whatever. That link describes a call center worker as a knowledge worker. That's absolute nonsense. You could, in theory, argue that a call center worker is about manag…
This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall fro…
For some people it's a passion. For others it's a job. IMO anyone who is passionate about their work will have greater success and generally be more innovative. I'm sure this is true across all career paths not just engineering.
In software there is no one right answer, the passion comes into play when you look for the most elegant or most performant solution, that may not be obvious on the first pass. This makes it a highly creative position, which I don't think software engineers are given enough credit for.
So while I wouldn't have phrased it in the way that your lead did, I personally look for people passionate about their jobs. The actual hours they keep are less important (though should overlap with their team).
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
I agree with this sentiment. There is a lot of work that needs doing. There are also a lot of parents out there with young children who could use a nanny. There's a need for more therapists, or just people to talk to. There's a lot of work that needs doing. There's an abundance of people to do the work, and I feel like we have plenty of natural resources. It seems to me that we could build housing for everyone, we ha…
Heck, even if you made that proposition to a fast food worker that he could do meaningful work instead of smelling like fried stuff all the time and always be worried about working enough hours for a crappy boss and no future, or to a janitor that he could help someone instead of cleaning pee all day, maybe they would do that instead. Maybe even to an office drone, who knows. Right now people work because otherwise t…
> Heck, even if you made that proposition to a fast food worker that he could do meaningful work instead of smelling like fried stuff all the time and always be worried about working enough hours for a crappy boss and no future, or to a janitor that he could help someone instead of cleaning pee all day, maybe they would do that instead. Maybe even to an office drone, who knows.
You imply that being a fast food worker, janitor, or "office drone" is not meaningful work. To many people it is. Your comment comes across as demeaning.
Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?
#290Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are you serious? Knowledge workers have it easy . It's hard to get here, but once we're here it's a great gig. We're paid well, we're in demand, and there's a robust freelancing sector to our industries, be it software, legal, medical, engineering, or whatever. That link describes a call center worker as a knowledge worker. That's absolute nonsense. You could, in theory, argue that a call center worker is about manag…
This is the bit that hits close to home to me: > they must demonstrate commitment above and beyond their contracted work hours, and express constant satisfaction and happiness about their work My wife and I are both software engineers and that is a nearly constant source of stress for us. In our experience, people in our field frown upon people who treat software engineering as just their job. Two things I recall fro…
My biggest frustration at work is the colleagues - most of whom are software engineers - that are inconvenienced when being asked to consider work outside of normal business hours. I don't really care if they are happy; that's what overpaying them is for. What I care about is getting one of them to answer the phone at 5:05pm on a tuesday and not getting a return call until 9:03 on a Wednesday.