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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

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Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#261

Post by srtjstjsj »

BurningFrog wrote: post #125
thesagan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Begging the question; economics is not a physical science where you can run A/B tests on an economy and find results. It's a social study, mostly. As someone who studied it for years , institutionally and on my own, I can tell you that economists do not agree on any basic laws except that people have a long list of wants and that not all of them can be satisfied. Many economists are questioning their 101s lately. Loo…

> economics is not a physical science where you can run A/B tests on an economy and find results The is broadly true of Macro Economics. This might even be impossible as a science, since the object of study (world economy and markets) is aware of its findings, and adapts around them. Micro Economics, or "Price Theory" as it maybe should be called, is OTOH a very powerful science that gives deep and counter intuitive…

what kind of insights?

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#262

Post by stale2002 »

pygy_ wrote: post #107
AmirS2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fulltime labor for everyone is simply not going to happen. We just don't need it. and from the article > there’s not enough work to go around I disagree. There's not enough paid employment to go around, but there is an enormous amount of work that needs to be done! Our entire society needs to be weaned off its carbon dependence if we want humans to survive the next century. This will involve at the very least the w…

The constant supply solar of energy (and finite supply of mineral energy sources) also means that we won't be able to grow the economy indefinitely and need to find a way to transition to a system that thrives at equilibrium.

Why would we have to worry about that now?

The economy can grow by a million X before we start running into physical limitations on solar energy.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#263

Post by srtjstjsj »

WalterBright wrote: post #88
thesagan wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Begging the question; economics is not a physical science where you can run A/B tests on an economy and find results. It's a social study, mostly. As someone who studied it for years , institutionally and on my own, I can tell you that economists do not agree on any basic laws except that people have a long list of wants and that not all of them can be satisfied. Many economists are questioning their 101s lately. Loo…

Most (all?) bad economic policies come from denial of economics 101. For example, fixed currency exchange rates. And, of course, wage and price controls.

No, economic policies come from observation that policies are sociological. Economics tells us what is, not what is desirable. Policies are applied economics, intended to distribute value in unnatural but desirable ways. Price controls and other "bad" economic policies are akin to a rocket ship's gravity controls that generate huge amounts of entropy to lift a metal box off the ground: They sacrifice some measure of global optimality in exchange for local improvements.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#264

Post by pdonis »

PrimalDual wrote: post #115
wildmusings wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thing to be able to live a frugal life and still be healthy enough. Why do you think that you should have the right to live off of other people's work? Welfare checks aren't fairy money, they're money that ca…

So right now it comes from other people's paycheck but does it have to? Why don't rich countries like the US, Switzerland or Japan not print money to cover their spending? Inflation is not the problem it used to be and I actually think it's a much better measure of the economy's capacity than unemployment. Would inflation of 4% be that bad for the public and financial system anyways? In the US at least I strongly opp…

> Why don't rich countries like the US, Switzerland or Japan not print money to cover their spending?

The US is doing exactly that, and has been for decades. Since the 2008 debacle it has being doing even more of it.

> inflation in a sense is unavoidable

If you mean politically unavoidable, I agree; no government in human history has been able to avoid messing with the currency.

If you mean unavoidable period, I'm not sure why it would be. There is nothing in principle impossible about having a currency that cannot be inflated.

> if the cause of inflation is labor scarcity

How does labor scarcity cause inflation?

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#265

Post by srtjstjsj »

jimbokun wrote: post #245
Pyxl101 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you implying that people have had to struggle less to achieve or retain financial security in the past? During what time period and in what country? Can you share some specific data substantiating the claim? Average wealth has increased in America over the last 50 years, and real family income has been rising overall since the 1950s. Wealth concentration today is lower than it was in the 1930s. Poverty has fallen…

Interesting you choose 60s and 50s as comparison points, as many statistics suggest wage increases have been almost nonexistent since the 70s.

increases are fun, but non-increases are better than decreases. Is our economic life worse than the 70s?

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#266

Post by srtjstjsj »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #84
DougWebb wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say "isn't working" in the sense that the vast majority are struggling to achieve or retain financial security, while a tiny minority have concentrated most of the weath for themselves. Also, the trend continues to concentrate wealth further, making it ever more difficult for the majority. This is a recurring cycle, which has happened many times throughout history. Pretty much every time it ends with the elit…

Are you implying that people have had to struggle less to achieve or retain financial security in the past? During what time period and in what country? Can you share some specific data substantiating the claim? Average wealth has increased in America over the last 50 years, and real family income has been rising overall since the 1950s. Wealth concentration today is lower than it was in the 1930s. Poverty has fallen…

> Note as well that the average person today has a better quality of life than medieval kings did.

That doesn't means that we should set by and let modern kings steal most of our economic surplus.

And American wealth has grown at the expense of creating enemies who are in a growing position to exact retribution.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#268

Post by grigjd3 »

Some variance of the end of labor seems to work its way around every five or so years. The focus of these articles are always the abstract concepts of labor that make it into politidal campaigns and economics. They never seem to notice that people often enjoy work: camaraderie, taking pleasure in a job well done and seeing how one's personal efforts can make a positive impact. What we should be struggling against is dehumanizing or demeaning work. People should be able to seek personal meaning in what they do.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#270

Post by djKianoosh »

dpweb wrote: post #260
chadcmulligan wrote: post #136

Maybe a better approach is how can we spend the surplus labour? There are lots of things I see need doing looking around my neighbourhood - public parks need cleaning up, old houses could be torn down and make some nice new ones, old roads could be fixed. Probably stacks of other things. Maybe some creative accounting will enable us to do these things? I know national parks near me have great paths that were built in…

There's a great example of this now. Uber drivers. There are a lot of people out there with a lot of free time who are willing to work for very little. Maybe the Govt should make an app that people can use their phone to sign up and do jobs like cleaning up parks etc.. and the Govt can pay them.

this would be lovely, but it's utopian. uber drivers drive someone to a place, and if they dont they dont get paid.

the sorts of jobs you're talking about arent always all so clearly verified/verifiable. you'd need other government workers just to verify that the job was done properly... ufff I can see the waste now

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