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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#831

Post by hugohn »

edblarney wrote: post #364
ageofwant wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a logical fallacy if coldtea actually made that claim. He did not. He simply pointed out that edblamey moral high ground is a fallacy in itself, when so many of those Western nations stand accused of worse.

Western nations have not 'done worse' in modern times. The logical fallacy I think is yours for trying to compare Cuba to the USA in a tit-for-tat comparison of misrepresented facts and issues. Dropping a nuclear bomb seems 'bad' until you put it in the context of what the Japanese were doing, and the costs otherwise. The North Vietnamese that the Americans & South Vietnamese were fighting against were 10x worse than…

>The North Vietnamese that the Americans & South Vietnamese were fighting against were 10x worse than Castro (they executed 100's of thousands in the streets - and put millions in concentration camps after the Americans withdrew) - and using 'agent Orange' was an act of reasonable desperation on the part of the Americans as it was used only to clear foliage near American firebases, the casualties were mostly American and of course it was not done with the knowledge people would be hurt - the author of the note makes it seem like it was used on purpose to hurt Vietnamese which is a gross misrepresentation.

Wow, I am Vietnamese, and this is so shockingly far from the truth. FYI, the total number of American casualties in the Vietnam war amounted to something like ~50,000, while the conservative estimate for the total number of Vietnamese deaths was at least one million- the majority of which were civilian. What's worse, Agent Orange's effects were far reaching. Long after the war had ended it continued creating unimaginable damage, to the environment, to the people, to the economy [1]. Conveniently downplaying this horrible crime (which the US has still not owned up completely) is misrepresenting the facts. And yes, Western nations have done 'worse'. Much of the tragedies around the world in the 20th century had much to do with the Western countries' imperialiastic mindset.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent_Orange#Effects_on_the_Vi...

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#832

Post by rubberstamp »

bzbarsky wrote: post #823
rubberstamp wrote: post #794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant to take into account all results of US interventions from the end of world war 2. Its a net negative result for affected citizens due to underhanded tactics by US. And for US too. Which is why USA is no more a world leader. It would have had plausibility if it didn't constantly try to undermine other democratic countries atleast. But no, every other country is a possible enemy. Spying even the heads of states…

> Its a net negative result for affected citizens due to underhanded tactics by US Net negative compared to the counterfactual of perfect interventions or the counterfactual of no interventions? Again, I think there were lots of cases in which the US screwed up. That's easier to tell in hindsight in some of those cases. On the ground at the time, was it obvious that the Korean War was a good idea and the Vietnam War…

Yes, US should just mind its own business.

Just because other governments do it doesn't make it right.

Open governance that I suggested is very similar to Open government wiki link you linked.

And I spelled hypocrisy wrong.

My understanding is the world would be a better place if everyone works together and live peacefully.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#834

Post by bzbarsky »

rubberstamp wrote: post #832
bzbarsky wrote: post #823

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its a net negative result for affected citizens due to underhanded tactics by US Net negative compared to the counterfactual of perfect interventions or the counterfactual of no interventions? Again, I think there were lots of cases in which the US screwed up. That's easier to tell in hindsight in some of those cases. On the ground at the time, was it obvious that the Korean War was a good idea and the Vietnam War…

Yes, US should just mind its own business. Just because other governments do it doesn't make it right. Open governance that I suggested is very similar to Open government wiki link you linked. And I spelled hypocrisy wrong. My understanding is the world would be a better place if everyone works together and live peacefully.

> Yes, US should just mind its own business.

Now please convince the Latvians of that, say. Seriously, the case that the second half of the 20th century would have turned out better with an isolationist US is a hard case to make.

> Just because other governments do it doesn't make it right.

I'm not entirely convinced. The problem is that alliances are not permanent...

> And I spelled hypocrisy wrong.

Then as I said, I don't understand the rest of your paragraph.

> My understanding is the world would be a better place if everyone works together and live peacefully.

Sure. We'd need no police, no armies, etc. It would be pretty nice.

The question is how we get there.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#835

Post by GunboatDiplomat »

IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #617
GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #430

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And Venezuela is a paradise on earth!

Have you ever read anything about Cuban democracy besides the propaganda put out by the US government? If you're actually interested in educating yourself, there's an interesting sociology paper called Representative Government in Socialist Cuba.

I'm not particularly interested in Cuban propaganda, no.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#836

Post by sooheon »

peteretep wrote: post #800
sooheon wrote: post #795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is the imprisonment of Manning not essentially for dissent? Snowden yes, is technically not imprisoned, but effective exile and hiding under threat of imprisonment or worse.

The same reason Ted Kaczynski isn't being imprisoned "essentially for dissent". You're allowed to hold any opinion you like in the US and the government can't touch you. That's what dissent means. But if you commit crimes due to your dissenting opinions, they go after you for those crimes.

That is a good point. Dissent by voice, and without action, cannot be punished in the US. But classifying dissenting actions such as whistleblowing as such heinous crimes, and punishing to the point of torture, is a stifling of dissent as well.

Recall the civil rights movement, where dissent by voice alone was not enough, and unjust laws had to be broken in order to bring attention to the more important issue. Beyond a point, the more severely a country punishes those dissenting actions, the less free the country is, in my opinion. Of course this can range from jailing, to waterboarding, to buck naked solitary confinement, to unceremonious executions, and military actions against civilians. The US isn't the worse by this measure, but it's not spotless either.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#837

Post by NetStrikeForce »

67726e wrote: post #717
NetStrikeForce wrote: post #598

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it doesn't. However, you seem to be fairly convinced those people are all terrorists and not just political opponents that are under our drones' crosshairs. I guess the people massacred at that MSF hospital were terrorists, too.

> I guess the people massacred at that MSF hospital were terrorists, too. That wasn't a drone strike. That was an accidental attack by an AC-130 gunship. I'm sure folks in Yemen or Afghanistan are a political threat to Obama. Right.

Ah, you're right. It wasn't a drone, it was humans massacring a MSF hospital by accident. I guess the irony of it should be self explanatory.

If humans can attack during at least 30 minutes a (well-known) position by mistake, why should I believe that every single droned person was a terrorist?

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#838

Post by sebastianconcpt »

hisham_hm wrote: post #668
Oletros wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So no, nobody is coming for you in a free society that is not marxist Then we can tell the people disappeared in militar dictatorships in the Latin countries in the 50s-70s than they were prosecuted by marxist governments. School of the Americas was marxist, was not?

Why was this downvoted? It is historically accurate. The US-sponsored, anti-communist Latin American dictatorships killed and tortured a huge amount of people. Honest question: is this taught in World History classes in American schools?

Because is largely exaggerated. All killing is immoral and I don't like utilitarian arguments myself but those dictatorships killed a fraction of the people than most think. Example, in Argentina where I was born, for decades it was believed that there where 30000 missing, but now the official number turns out to be a bit less 7000. Even people coming from the left-wing that, in an exemplary way did a self revision and lived their mature days trying to recover intellectual honesty have recognised that the 30K was a fabrication to amplify marxist propaganda https://vimeo.com/95210051

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#839

Post by cmbailey »

ereyes01 wrote: post #228

I know that in geopolitics, there are no good guys, that each nation acts in their own self-interest. I know that the crimes of one nation may be horrible, but pale in comparison to those of a bigger enemy. I know that politics has winners and losers, that the winners get to claim the moral high ground, while the losers mourn their injustice. But tonight, I'll remember my family members that were killed in Las Cabaña…

Thank you for sharing the personal experiences in your family.

Admirers of Fidel Castro around the world - and all his admirers on this page - have one thing in common: they never had to live under his dictatorship.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#840

Post by mrleinad »

laura2013 wrote: post #822
hisham_hm wrote: post #808

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That statement is supported by people I talked to who've been there. It's not like Cuba is North Korea; it's not that hard to see what life there is really like. Also, I do consider their levels of education to be a grandiose achievement, and "to what end?" — well, their levels of healthcare for one. I don't claim their system is perfect or even good, but one can't judge the value of education only on the salaries th…

you should judge them on the kind of living standards they provide.

They provide the standards of living that an economic blockade allows them to provide. Either everyone eats, or everyone rations their food. It's that simple.
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