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What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

aeon.co

521–530 of 576 posts

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got any examples? If we're talking about supply and demand, price elasticity, and things like that, I can't think of any loopholes. Knowing how these things work only makes people make more informed decisions.

Take the pricing of anything. Its greed pricing vs how much greed is tolerated. Take fish for example. In our local market prices basically increase roughly every 2 or 3 weeks. Sellers quote high when they are not desperate for money. They don't care if it doesn't sell. Now they may lie to other sellers that they sold at higher price and then others try their luck at pushing price high. Sales may be down for initial…

These examples don't actually disprove anything about microeconomics though.

Your example of the fish markets is just a good example of the fact that people have varying marginal utilities of money. Of course people try to get the highest price they can get - taking into account, of course, the time they'll be receiving the money. Obviously people will see if they can raise the price, but they're still in competition with other sellers; the price cannot be raised indefinitely. And it's not always clear whether other factors have changed - things like fish supply and catching are notoriously dependent on the weather, demand for fish varies seasonally and with changing fashions; it's a perishable good with not-super-fungible markets - maybe the prices know something about fish that you don't.

You give the example of super-high pricing for drugs such as the Daraprim case with Martin Shkreli. Note that this market is overseen and hugely, hugely regulated by the FDA, which imposes very lengthy and costly approval processes on drugs (even different manufacturers of off-patent "generics".) More generally, these drugs are on-patent - both of these situations are a de-facto monopoly that grants exactly the kind of economic rents that microeconomics predicts.

Ecommerce pricing also doesn't disprove anything. You could, for example, explain this by other factors, such as that ecommerce warehouses and logistics chains are capacity-limited, so "surge pricing" would make good sense to smooth demand peaks. But that's besides the point, really, because microeconomics would absolutely predict that if people, on average, have a preference for shopping at a particular time, then a seller may attempt to capture this preference in the price. This isn't done in brick-and-mortar retail, since changing the prices hourly would be a huge hassle. But in ecommerce, it's easy, so prices modulate with demand. And stores have always changed their prices over time, it's just that the internet makes it easy to go for a smaller granularity.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#522
post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And economics often operates under the assumption that all actors act rationally and with perfect and complete information, which of course we know is not true. (editted for clarity, grammar and spelling)

For those interested to read more: it's called the homo economicus [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_economicus

Essentially zero actual economists assert or believe that actual humans in actual economies are, or behave like, homo economicus. Essentially all are aware that it is a limited model, which attempts to approach certain important features of reality, but cannot always do so due to limits on information, comprehension, and subjective values. Meteorology is still a valid field of science even if its models are limited and incomplete. Likewise with economics.

"Economists think homo economicus is literally true" is a ludicrous strawman.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#523
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you build a system that is stable where an individual is expected to leave some personal gain on the table? That runs entirely counter to human nature. If you can solve that you may have something workable, but without it "Nonsense" is as good a word as any.

Really? In Northern Europe I would argue we have this working decently well. To point where we have a health care system and educational system which is both less expensive than some and more productive/effective at the same time.

What's notable is that Northern European economies have among the freest, most "market capitalist" economies on Earth. There's a substantial amount of tax-and-redistribute to them, but very little in the way of economic planning, or actual-socialist communalism. Mostly it's just a large welfare state.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#524
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flaw in this analogy is that the current top earners (CEO, traders, White collar) net contribution to society has no correlation with the money they extract from the system. Does a CEO improving his company market value by firing people have the same contribution to society as a paramedic saving a life, a nanny taking care of a baby so the parents can work or a teacher educating kids? These are highly valuable se…

> Does a CEO improving his company market value by firing people have the same contribution to society as a paramedic saving a life, a nanny taking care of a baby so the parents can work or a teacher educating kids? According to society's value system, as reflected by market pricing, I believe the answer is generally yes, the CEO is valued more. The CEO is valued more because their work affects the company they lead…

It's also why so many CEOs get fired with "golden parachutes" - the value of getting rid of them quickly vastly exceeds the amount of money they get as severance.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#525
post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this would be lovely, but it's utopian. uber drivers drive someone to a place, and if they dont they dont get paid. the sorts of jobs you're talking about arent always all so clearly verified/verifiable. you'd need other government workers just to verify that the job was done properly... ufff I can see the waste now

Drones verify the leaves were raked etc..

Where we reach the singularity not through the progress of machines but by the decline of our own abilities.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#526
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can imagine a future where the basic standard of living for everyone is like what we give senior citizens today. Everyone is clothed, fed, has a roof over their heads, and has access to medical care. But if you want more than basic, then you have to perform labour of some sort. Want to take the trip to Mars? Gotta work for it. Yes, there will be a difference between those who labour and those who don't, but I still…

> I can imagine a future where the basic standard of living for everyone is like what we give senior citizens today. Everyone is clothed, fed, has a roof over their heads, and has access to medical care. This is already a reality in many countries. It would be very easy to also make it a reality in the US. The resources are there.

They are not. Even for the senior citizens — existing pension systems are on the verge of collapse already.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#527
post #395
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally, I think no, I don't. Morally? I don't believe in morals.

Interesting. Honest question, do you believe in anything other than laws as a guide for life? I suspect you do, but I don't want to assume so, given your comment. I find "if it's legal, it's okay" problematic given that laws change. If laws can change, what drives that change if not some code the laws are meant to approach?

I believe mutual cooperation is more important than competition.

> what drives that change

Congress I think

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#528
post #515
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legally, I think no, I don't. Morally? I don't believe in morals.

You don't believe morality exists, or is that a fancy way of saying "I don't have morals?" Because the welfare and healthcare system you are looking forward to live off exists only because of morals.

I don't think they exist because of morals. If you want a country that is thriving, lower classes should have a good living standard. The lower class is the basis of any country. Even if you have very smart people at the top, they can't do a lot if the people under them can't count or have poor health.

I believe that if you set a good minimum standard, it will trickle up.

Also if you don't want riots in the streets, you should make sure the lower classes are living decently.

That's not morals, that political intelligence. Crowds with empty stomachs are a political nightmare.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#529
post #5

There is a difference between a job you like, and a job you do because you believe "work sets you free" or because you believe work is a some sort of value or a necessary pain everybody has to take part in. I'm unemployed and I really don't think I have any duties to work in fast food or to deliver pizza because I must contribute. If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will. I think it's a great thi…

> If I decide I can live poor and be happy with welfare, I will Are you banking on the tax payers never reaching that mindset as well? Because it kind of breaks down if that happens.

If more people go on welfare, they will be forced to stop over-consuming. The industry will adapt, and some regulations will change.

Re: What if jobs are not the solution but the problem?

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting you choose 60s and 50s as comparison points, as many statistics suggest wage increases have been almost nonexistent since the 70s.

increases are fun, but non-increases are better than decreases. Is our economic life worse than the 70s?

If there is an increase in living costs at the same time and/or a decrease in quality of goods then obviously yes.
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