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Thoughts on Flash

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Re: Thoughts on Flash

#181

Post by gaius »

danielh wrote: post #125
tumult wrote: post #11

More good news about 3.3.1 "must write in C, Objective-C or C++" clause: it's made even more obvious here that Apple only cares about commercial middleware UI-driven applications. Those of us with custom toolkits and compilers (and games developers) can probably relax. Though, I wish they would still change the wording. I dislike having to wait for my friend's cat to click the "I Agree" button, since I cannot actuall…

I'm afraid quite the opposite is the case: We know from painful experience that letting a third party layer of software come between the platform and the developer ultimately results in sub-standard apps and hinders the enhancement and progress of the platform. IMHO, this sentences leaves no doubt that Apple does not only target Adobe, but any kind of layer they consider harmful for their platform.

Anyone who doubts this need only write an AWT app to be convinced.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#182

Post by tptacek »

efsavage wrote: post #179
tptacek wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple makes Bill Gates look like Richard Stallman? Let me ask you something. How many of Microsoft's competitors are building products that compete directly with Microsoft core offerings using the source code to Internet Explorer?

How many of Microsoft's OSes have specifically forbidden that you install another web browser?

That depends on who "you" means. If by you, you mean "me"? None of them. If by "you", you mean "Dell"? Very different story.

Your comparison is, to this reader, simply hyperbolic.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#183

Post by bobdole2695 »

Qz wrote: post #106
rimantas wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess by "standards pertaining to the web" Apple means HTML, Javascript (ECMAScript to be precise) and CSS. What do you mean by "standards pertaining to what software is allowed to run on your computer" ?

Less of an explicit standard and more the previous consensus that the company that sells you your computer shouldn't retain control over what kind of legitimate software you can run on it after it's in your possession, based on some self-aggrandizing notion that they know what's best for you better than you do.

Uh? Have you met users before?

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#184

Post by rmc »

ugh wrote: post #25
not_an_alien wrote: post #19

The fact that the repeats the rollover crap makes it sound as if they're really trying hard on rationalizing. Just say it's a business decision, Apple. Stop pretending you have the consumer in mind.

What’s wrong about this argument? Would all Flash content that uses rollover just work on mobile touch devices or would some kind of modification be necessary? I’m really curious about that.

The other problem with this argument is that Jobs is saying that it's just as easy to rewrite the flash app in javascript as it to remove the reliance on rollovers. Whereas for the vast majority of the flash apps, removing rollovers is much easier than a complete rewrite.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#185

Post by marr »

gfunk911 wrote: post #6

I love this. Apple clearly laid out their reasoning, using facts and persuasive argument. The world needs more of this. Obviously, there is some spin in the post, and I don't completely agree with 100% of it, but I love the level of discourse.

The Lord said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman replied, "The serpent tricked me, and I ate."

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#186

Post by crocowhile »

dcurtis wrote: post #153
pilif wrote: post #64

> For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5. right. And the Finder - a piece of Software central to OSX was using Carbon until... when exactly? At most 6 months prior to when CS5 came out. iTunes - a corner stone of the iPhone software world? Still on Carbon. If I hate one thing, it's hypocrisy. Aside of that, nice…

Apple purposefully wrote Finder in clean Carbon as an example to developers, to prove that it was possible to make good cross-platform software. iTunes was also written very carefully -- and very cleanly -- in Carbon to be cross-platform. Adobe, however, hacked Creative Suite into Carbon with buggy, inefficient code and then took 10 years -- ten years -- to schedule the time to fix it.

Have you ever used itunes on pc? It sucks. Almost as much as flash.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#187

Post by j_baker »

If 3.3.1 was just about Flash, I'd agree with Steve. But I think that clause solves a lot more than just Flash. For instance, iPhone apps seem to be horribly unreliable in my experience. And I think part of this has to do with Objective-C on the iPhone's lack of garbage collection. I think that there's a valid point that a system like MonoTouch (which supports garbage collection) would improve the quality of iPhone apps.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#188

Post by Zev »

tomlin wrote: post #135
gfunk911 wrote: post #6

I love this. Apple clearly laid out their reasoning, using facts and persuasive argument. The world needs more of this. Obviously, there is some spin in the post, and I don't completely agree with 100% of it, but I love the level of discourse.

I have trouble swallowing some of this. A few of these theories have been debunked successfully. I have a small problem with this "don't look at the man behind the curtain" routine. Proprietary is proprietary. Don't try and swing it. Battery Life: http://vimeo.com/9705969 , http://vimeo.com/9724682 Delays: http://www.neowin.net/news/adobe-quotapple-hurts-customers-f... Touch/Scroll: http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2…

Delays

Your link makes it seem like an evangelist is playing loosely with words; "available for download" could simply mean beta/RC status, not ready for release everywhere.

Battery Life

From your link: The results are amazing: I can watch a 4 hours and a half flash movie, without interruption, with a bright screen (no sleep mode) and sound !!!

From Steve Jobs post: The difference is striking: on an iPhone, for example, H.264 videos play for up to 10 hours, while videos decoded in software play for less than 5 hours before the battery is fully drained.

They seem to agree with each other? And only helps Apple's point.

Touch/Scroll

How about hover?

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#189

Post by tvon »

tomlin wrote: post #135
gfunk911 wrote: post #6

I love this. Apple clearly laid out their reasoning, using facts and persuasive argument. The world needs more of this. Obviously, there is some spin in the post, and I don't completely agree with 100% of it, but I love the level of discourse.

I have trouble swallowing some of this. A few of these theories have been debunked successfully. I have a small problem with this "don't look at the man behind the curtain" routine. Proprietary is proprietary. Don't try and swing it. Battery Life: http://vimeo.com/9705969 , http://vimeo.com/9724682 Delays: http://www.neowin.net/news/adobe-quotapple-hurts-customers-f... Touch/Scroll: http://www.mikechambers.com/blog/2…

Proprietary on the web affects everyone, proprietary on the iPhone affects only the iPhone.

Re: Thoughts on Flash

#190

Post by henrikschroder »

gbrindisi wrote: post #151
henrikschroder wrote: post #139

Clearly, none of you people commenting here are considering the flash gaming market. Yes, I can see how most video sites can ditch their Flash players once almost everyone has html5-capable browsers, and yes videos is the largest use-case for Flash right now, but games is the second largest, involves a lot more money, and cannot be easily replicated without Flash. Also, the people making games in Flash are usually gr…

Even if the people making games in flash are graphic designers doesn't mean they can't learn something new. After all is their job.

Of course they can, and of course they will, if a better technology and design environment appears, but that shift is going to be much slower than that of good web programmers.
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