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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#371

Post by jeswin »

tmptmp wrote: post #311
jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

Charismatic? Yes, but so was Hitler and Osama bin Laden. Revolutionary? yes, but so was Hitler. So, let's get it clear that that doesn't make him humane and good for society. >>If you think you're better, then do better. Be better. Don't refuse to acknowledge the humanity of another person because you believe you can totalize their entire life under a cheap tagline. This is a disingenuous advice. Will you not critici…

The majority in the US hold an unfavorable view of Castro, but that's not the case worldwide. Even in Canada for instance, the more people think Castro was good for Cuba than not [1]. Asia generally holds him in high regard, and Europe has mixed feelings.

For some objectivity, we could look at some stats. PPP adjusted GDP per capita is much lower than the US, but way better than China. Education is excellent [2] because they spend 10% of their budget on it. Life expectancy (~79, gasp!) is higher than the United States. All of this with a near total embargo from the next-door global economic super power.

Western record on human rights is equally bad. In Castro's time, the Vietnam war resulted in 1.3 million deaths. More recently, the invasion of Iraq has resulted in 125,000 non-combatant deaths. Western allies today like Saudi have the most egregious human rights records.

I hate communism, but even with unrestrained exaggeration, Castro isn't Hitler. Such a claim is either a result of media manipulation of history or a flawed history curriculum.

[1] http://www.pewglobal.org/2008/02/19/global-views-on-castro-a...

[2] https://novakdjokovicfoundation.org/education-system-of-cuba...

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#372

Post by sebastianconcpt »

briandear wrote: post #343
mullingitover wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zero to Godwin in two posts.

However in this case it's appropriate. We are talking violent, oppressive world leaders. I would offer that Godwin doesn't apply here.

Exactly. Communist propaganda and cultural war was so good and effective that many will miss the part that we are talking about a socialist totalitarian in both regimes so appealing to Godwin is a non-antiargument and a fail to reason itself

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#373

Post by tgarma1234 »

jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

If you have never seen the movie Before Night Falls I recommend it. While I agree that 20th century politics in Latin America was complicated, it's also true that the Castro regime committed a lot of human rights violations in ways that now seem really unjustified. I am not saying the United States was innocent. I am saying that a lot of people suffered under the regime needlessly and that should be acknowledged honestly.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#374

Post by eyko »

vixen99 wrote: post #347
peteretep wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dictatorship contains evil. > this is a black-and-white matter No matter how much you repeat your opinion, or how strongly you state it, it doesn't mean it suddenly become consensus reality.

I guess it's pretty much black and white for most of us if for life's duration we're forced to do what someone tells us to do. If permitted, we could do a few polls and discover whether such sanctions are regarded by those affected as 'consensus reality'. 'Evil' has religious overtones but it's not a bad word to sum up such a situation.

Even in democracies, we're forced to do what our govt tells us to do, or not do. Soft drugs and alcohol are the perfect example of someone's opinion forced down our throats. the fact that some drugs are harness but illegal while others are harmful but legal.

Americans couldn't travel to Cuba. During the cold war, USSR. Americans couldn't freely express socialist ideas never mind communist ones. This in a democracy. I don't really see a big difference. The peculiarities of Cuba can be understood in its geopolitical context.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#375

Post by afarrell »

briandear wrote: post #340
jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

Butchering priests in the name of revolution? Nope. Sorry. Can't appreciate the 'humanity' of someone that clearly doesn't deserve to be called such. Suggesting Castro deserves acknowledgement of his humanity is like suggesting Hitler was a sensitive art student.

Both are true though. Many humans have butchered fellow humans. Hitler wasn't uniquely evil in human history, but a part of a long-running tradition

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#376

Post by realusername »

friendlygrammar wrote: post #154
coldtea wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He condemned an entire nation to poverty! That's more because of the embargo than anything Cubans did. And even given that, they do way better than most latin american "free" nations. > His most notable achievement with regards to Africa was sending soldiers to extend the life of wars. Let's not go into which country, besides Germany and USSR, started more wars, meddled in more places, held more peopls down by inst…

>That's more because of the embargo than anything Cubans did I just have to ask, does communism require trading with capitalist nations to be successful? Because there are many nations under embargo by the US that are significantly more prosperous. But clearly, when Marx was talking about a communist revolution he clearly meant that you should allow yourself to be exploited by your nearest capitalist neighbor.

When you are an island, you HAVE to trade, you can be capitalist, communist or even monarchist, at some point you need goods from other places.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#377

Post by realusername »

friendlygrammar wrote: post #206
ageofwant wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insane ? I'll be the judge of my sanity, not you. >> -Cuban economy Destroyed by American embargo. >> -Cuban quality of life See above. I'm not arguing Castro was a saint, far from it. But you cannot lay blame of the suffering of Cuba at the feet of Castro only.

does communism really require trade with capitalist nations to succeed?

When you are an island, you HAVE to trade, you can be capitalist, communist or even monarchist, at some point you need goods from other places.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#378

Post by throw2016 »

The US has far more sins on its hand than Castro. Its not even a contest. There are over 59 self serving armed interventions in other countries since 1950 the last being Iraq, Syria, Libya and that's not counting stirring up 'revolution' that usually leads to US friendly despots in place.

This is destruction and devastation of tens of millions of lives. Libya was one of the most advanced countries in Africa, now its a basketcase. That's millions of lives in disarray setback for generations. Who takes responsibility for this? If these are not crimes against humanity what is?

We have got used to a fraudulent narrative supported by 'our' media where we can judge and think the worst of others and not examine our own devious actions. But if we want to judge and get self righteous about Castro we must first hold our own government to account to have an iota of credibility.

Since there is zero interest in prosecuting or even reining in the warmongers this persistent kneejerk rush to the moral highground is a sinister posturing by people who know exactly what this country has been doing and are out to defraud the world.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#379

Post by mrleinad »

tgarma1234 wrote: post #373
jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

If you have never seen the movie Before Night Falls I recommend it. While I agree that 20th century politics in Latin America was complicated, it's also true that the Castro regime committed a lot of human rights violations in ways that now seem really unjustified. I am not saying the United States was innocent. I am saying that a lot of people suffered under the regime needlessly and that should be acknowledged hone…

Right after the USA acknowledges ALL of their crimes against humanity, which are far more and spread much more wider.

No cuban children sleeps in the streets tonight. You can't say that about northamerican children.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#380

Post by peteretep »

vixen99 wrote: post #347
peteretep wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dictatorship contains evil. > this is a black-and-white matter No matter how much you repeat your opinion, or how strongly you state it, it doesn't mean it suddenly become consensus reality.

I guess it's pretty much black and white for most of us if for life's duration we're forced to do what someone tells us to do. If permitted, we could do a few polls and discover whether such sanctions are regarded by those affected as 'consensus reality'. 'Evil' has religious overtones but it's not a bad word to sum up such a situation.

    > we're forced to do what someone
    > tells us to do
That is the case in almost all non-ananarchic societies.

You are confusing a lack of suffrage for effective slavery.

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