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Fidel Castro has died

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Re: Fidel Castro has died

#341

Post by mullingitover »

tmptmp wrote: post #311
jknoepfler wrote: post #119

I would encourage the commenters in this thread who see Fidel's legacy as a black-and-white matter of an "evil dictator who did bad things and was wrong about economics" to step back, bear witness to the objective facts about Fidel Castro's life ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_Castro ), think sincerely about what could lead a highly intelligent and charismatic person to become or follow Fidel Castro (as many ha…

Charismatic? Yes, but so was Hitler and Osama bin Laden. Revolutionary? yes, but so was Hitler. So, let's get it clear that that doesn't make him humane and good for society. >>If you think you're better, then do better. Be better. Don't refuse to acknowledge the humanity of another person because you believe you can totalize their entire life under a cheap tagline. This is a disingenuous advice. Will you not critici…

Zero to Godwin in two posts.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#342

Post by briandear »

apsec112 wrote: post #330
tmptmp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charismatic? Yes, but so was Hitler and Osama bin Laden. Revolutionary? yes, but so was Hitler. So, let's get it clear that that doesn't make him humane and good for society. >>If you think you're better, then do better. Be better. Don't refuse to acknowledge the humanity of another person because you believe you can totalize their entire life under a cheap tagline. This is a disingenuous advice. Will you not critici…

I'm as anti-communist as they come, but comparing Castro to Hitler is ridiculous. Castro never set up camps for the sole purpose of mass murder. Castro didn't create special army units to machine gun hundreds of thousands of civilians. Castro didn't deliberately starve entire cities of people to death.

Castro was Hitler without the industrial base.

http://www.therealcuba.com/?page_id=55

Essentially he was a pre-revenue Hiltler.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#343

Post by briandear »

mullingitover wrote: post #341
tmptmp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charismatic? Yes, but so was Hitler and Osama bin Laden. Revolutionary? yes, but so was Hitler. So, let's get it clear that that doesn't make him humane and good for society. >>If you think you're better, then do better. Be better. Don't refuse to acknowledge the humanity of another person because you believe you can totalize their entire life under a cheap tagline. This is a disingenuous advice. Will you not critici…

Zero to Godwin in two posts.

However in this case it's appropriate. We are talking violent, oppressive world leaders. I would offer that Godwin doesn't apply here.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#344

Post by faebi »

IslaDeEncanta wrote: post #254
edblarney wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The western view of Castro is painted with decades of terrible propaganda." + Fidel does not allow his people to leave, with the threat of punishment. + Fidel does not allow democracy + He does not allow any real internet access + Fidel puts political dissidents in jail + Fidel's private Army own's 85% of the economy + Cuban's live in relative poverty + Only the US 'embargos' Cuba, they are free to trade with 167 ot…

You are ignorant of the reality of Cuban society. People have been able to leave Cuba freely since 1980. Cuba is a participatory democracy, with essentially every adult being involved. Internet access was not really a priority with the USSR collapsing and the recovery from that, but it is being quickly broadened. Only those who actively attempt to undermine the Cuban democracy are imprisoned, but people are free to v…

I've been to Havanna 4 times. The electricity always worked. The room we had at somebodys home had windows but they are not needed anyway. Its so hot there, all you need is some iron in front. Since 2013 at least some had internet and this year there were lots of people at the public wifi hot spots. Yes cuba is not rich and laks many goods but in all my time there in literally all parts of the country I saw nobody suffering on the basics. Absolutemly everbody has enough food, a rooftop, free basic healthcare and money for alcohol and basic pleasures. It's not comperable to high european standards but I think it could be easily worse there. Did I mention its secure there? There are no insecure areas to go or bad people to talk to.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#345

Post by briandear »

pavanky wrote: post #276
wildmusings wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My family and the family of just about everyone I grew up around had their whole lives destroyed by this evil man. He has executed thousands, has imprisoned thousands more, and has totally ruined a country that was once the most prosperous in Latin America. You may philosophize about the 'complexity' of the life of this evil man, but for people who actually lived under his abuse, who have seen what he has done to the…

I am sorry others have been dismissing your comment outright. But please understand what OP is saying does not seem to imply that we philosophize the 'complexity of life' of Fidel Castro the individual, but rather the set of people he belongs to: popular revolutionaries who became dictators hated by their own people. What happened in Cuba after Castro came into power is similar to what happened in other countries aft…

This stuff didn't happen after he came to power -- he came to power because of his atrocities.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#346

Post by geezerjay »

apsec112 wrote: post #330
tmptmp wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Charismatic? Yes, but so was Hitler and Osama bin Laden. Revolutionary? yes, but so was Hitler. So, let's get it clear that that doesn't make him humane and good for society. >>If you think you're better, then do better. Be better. Don't refuse to acknowledge the humanity of another person because you believe you can totalize their entire life under a cheap tagline. This is a disingenuous advice. Will you not critici…

I'm as anti-communist as they come, but comparing Castro to Hitler is ridiculous. Castro never set up camps for the sole purpose of mass murder. Castro didn't create special army units to machine gun hundreds of thousands of civilians. Castro didn't deliberately starve entire cities of people to death.

You're arguing that some aspects of Hitler's National Socialism don't match Fidel Castro's Marxism-Leninism, while purposely ignoring all similarities, common to any totalitarian and repressive regime.

Castro's long list of political executions are well documented. We may agree that Nazi death camps have a scale of their own, but this is no reason to turn a blind eye to the oppressive and persecutory nature of Fidel Castro's regime.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#347

Post by vixen99 »

peteretep wrote: post #302
pif wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you write "evil dictator", you mean that a dictator could not be evil. This is hugely wrong. Dictatorship contains evil. I appreciate your effort to invite people to learn from history instead of just rejecting a portion of it. But this is a black-and-white matter: he chose to be a dictator, and he was wrong. Subsequent crimes and economics theories are less important once you keep people from choosing their fat…

> Dictatorship contains evil. > this is a black-and-white matter No matter how much you repeat your opinion, or how strongly you state it, it doesn't mean it suddenly become consensus reality.

I guess it's pretty much black and white for most of us if for life's duration we're forced to do what someone tells us to do. If permitted, we could do a few polls and discover whether such sanctions are regarded by those affected as 'consensus reality'.

'Evil' has religious overtones but it's not a bad word to sum up such a situation.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#348

Post by varjag »

geezerjay wrote: post #335
varjag wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also ended up a lot better than non-intervention in Syria. Although make no mistake, the USA is blamed for both anyway.

> It also ended up a lot better than non-intervention in Syria. It ended marginally better because NATO's intervention decisively tipped the scales against Gaddafi's regime. The Syrian civil war has been in a stalemate for years, and only recently has Assad's regime been making inroads due to Russia's decisive and no-holds-barred military intervention.

If by marginally we mean a difference of half million dead and three million seeking refuge, I beg to disagree.

And yes Syria is an intangible mess now, probably the same would have been in Lybia if it was left to own civil war for 5 more years.

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#349

Post by chillacy »

kgwgk wrote: post #300
chillacy wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting question. I think that depends on how you define "their people". In some sense, all dictators improved the lives of "their people". Nelson Mandela for instance made life better for black South Africans, but he's implicated in violence against white south africans. Hitler made life better for many Germans, especially given the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles. Turning back to the US, you could argue…

Mandela or Hitler are don't seem particularly anti-American. "The forms of government have always been different. But this cannot be a reason for hostility between different nations, as long as one form of government does not try to interfere with another, outside of its naturally ordained sphere." http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p389_Hitler.html

I suppose I didn't pick the best examples. Though Mandela was a critic of the US in later years regarding Iraq / Israel, and Hitler's sentiment on America seems to be complex: a combination of not taking america too seriously and not desiring conflict too early.

But I don't think that changes my original point, which is that all dictators can be seen as serving their people, depending on how you define "their people".

Re: Fidel Castro has died

#350

Post by apsec112 »

coldtea wrote: post #77
edblarney wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a disturbing position. I don't doubt that his doctors may have helped you. However, the man has committed grievous crimes, keeps 'his people' in abject poverty, on an 'island prison'. More than 85% of the economy is in the control of the military - his private Army. "Up until today, Cuba still sends significant numbers of doctors to remote African areas and provide expensive medical procedures for free." This…

> However, the man has committed grievous crimes Way less crimes than those who accuse him. Never sprayed Vietnamese with Agent Orange or napalms for one, never dropped nuclear bombs on civilians, never supported Pinochet et co, doesn't have 25% of the world's incarcerated in just 4% of the global population, and lots of other things besides. > keeps 'his people' in abject poverty A 40+ years embargo has something to…

"Soviet propagandists during the cold war were trained in a tactic that their western interlocutors nicknamed “whataboutism”. Any criticism of the Soviet Union (Afghanistan, martial law in Poland, imprisonment of dissidents, censorship) was met with a “What about...” (apartheid South Africa, jailed trade-unionists, the Contras in Nicaragua, and so forth)." - http://www.economist.com/node/10598774
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