Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#31

Post by jyu » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:18 AM UTC

NSX2 wrote: post #24

SwellJoe wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've made the mistake of believing an idea has value. It doesn't. An idea plus a good execution of it has value. If you can't convince a developer that you bring needed value to the execution of that idea, and you can't pay developers to work on your idea, then you have nothing. In six years you could have learned to program well enough to build a kickass demo--the fact that you haven't makes it pretty clear to dev…

> You've made the mistake of believing an idea has value. > It doesn't. I didn't put much credibility in this line of reasoning before, and now that I found out that major companies are putting millions into just reasearching this idea, I put even less. Crap executed brilliantly is still crap. > and you can't pay developers to work on your idea Actually, the money's not the problem. I can raise the money but I'd like…

...why can't you find someone to work with?

the excessive examples of sarcasm don't help, and your other comments could be insulting, and offending the people that you're trying to get advice from doesn't give much credence to your cause. (trust me, i would know http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=127717)

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#32

Post by NSX2 » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:21 AM UTC

omakase wrote: post #22

Why don't you share your idea. This is might be a great place to find your tech co-founder?! I don't understand why many people are so determined to keep their ideas secret a secret. First off odds are somebody has also though of the same idea. Not every great opportunity is immediately obvious in the early form of the idea. An idea alone does not make a killer startup imo -- execution is very important. Second, if o…

> An idea alone does not make a killer startup imo -- execution is very important.

Aaaah - but if I blurt the "what" to someone who can do the "how", then they have the "what" and "how" which means my negotiating leverage = 0 and I'm dependant on their good-will. Just to give you an idea of why I'm reluctant, see some of the above posts where people say things like, "If I partner with you and do your idea, why should I share the results with you?"

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#33

Post by NSX2 » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:28 AM UTC

jyu wrote: post #17

You spent 6 years on this idea with nothing to show for it[red flag]. You say your bottlenecks are programmers, and that you couldn't convince anyone to join you [red flag]. Why did they not buy into it? Instead of having you convince people, why not have some evidence to do the talking for you? Learn to put ideas into UI flow charts, functional specs. Show a paper prototype to customers and see if it is something th…

> You spent 6 years on this idea with nothing to show for it[red flag]

I wouldn't say that. For example I have some practical insights into how to apply it that is apparently worth millions/time for a major company to just explore it. and that in turn is based on the belief that there will be a huge market for it in the near future. So I'd that's not quite "nothing" ... although it's hard to put a figure on it.

As for the "couldn't convince anyone to join you" ... well, in NYC people either: 1) work on their own dream startup projects, so I never even get to discuss my thing becasue they're too busy sharing theirs ... 2) go to work for i-banks, Google, or now, Facebook. Bit hard to find programmers who ask you to compete with the terms a well-funded company like that puts on the table.

> "dreaded idea guy that wants 99% equity

Funny thing - I never approached anybody with anything near thos terms. I always said I just wanted what everyone else in the primary group got. So if it's me an 1 other guy necessary, 50-50. If it's me, 3 programmers, 2 other guys doing who knows what, and 4 whatevers, 10% each. I'm not the one with the reluctance to share.

> I would at least call them to see where they are with their research.

Do you imagine they'd share that with me though? Like, "Oh, hey, I just found out about something I wasn't supposed to find out about. BTW, what exactly are you guys up to and how far did you get? I won't tell a soul, I promise!"

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#34

Post by ericb » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:29 AM UTC

NSX2 wrote: post #24

SwellJoe wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've made the mistake of believing an idea has value. It doesn't. An idea plus a good execution of it has value. If you can't convince a developer that you bring needed value to the execution of that idea, and you can't pay developers to work on your idea, then you have nothing. In six years you could have learned to program well enough to build a kickass demo--the fact that you haven't makes it pretty clear to dev…

> You've made the mistake of believing an idea has value. > It doesn't. I didn't put much credibility in this line of reasoning before, and now that I found out that major companies are putting millions into just reasearching this idea, I put even less. Crap executed brilliantly is still crap. > and you can't pay developers to work on your idea Actually, the money's not the problem. I can raise the money but I'd like…

I would go to rentacoder.com, if I were you. Why are you so eager to give away equity if it's so valuable? No one is willing to take your idea sight-unseen, but people will do it for real money on rentacoder--if you're willing to put your money where you mouth is.

Imagine I told you I had a secret that would make you 100 MILLION dollars. I'll tell you the secret, but it will cost you $10,000 to learn it. I'm thinking you wouldn't bother. Why? Because the real value of the secret in this kind of asymmetric exchange is only apparent after it has been shared, so the deal never happens. In the back of your head, wouldn't you also be wondering why I didn't use the secret to make myself 100 million and why I'm so concerned with $10,000 if I have a secret worth so much?

I have a folder of over 40 of my ideas I don't have time to get to and so your idea would have to win out over the alternatives, but it can't beat the alternatives for anyone if you never share it.

Perhaps its most valuable as a story when you're older about "the one that got away."

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#35

Post by NSX2 » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:36 AM UTC

jyu wrote: post #31

NSX2 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You've made the mistake of believing an idea has value. > It doesn't. I didn't put much credibility in this line of reasoning before, and now that I found out that major companies are putting millions into just reasearching this idea, I put even less. Crap executed brilliantly is still crap. > and you can't pay developers to work on your idea Actually, the money's not the problem. I can raise the money but I'd like…

...why can't you find someone to work with? the excessive examples of sarcasm don't help, and your other comments could be insulting, and offending the people that you're trying to get advice from doesn't give much credence to your cause. (trust me, i would know http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=127717 )

Well, in general you're right. I just found the above poster's post (to which I responded in length) unbelievably obnoxious and pretentious. When it's the coding part, it's, "Why should "I" work on "your" idea ..."

And yet, if there are any financial results, all of a sudden all the results of "my idea" are 100% his, and all of a sudden it flips and becomes, "Why should "I" ... share "my" results with you?"

So when it's just an idea, it's mine. When there's money to be made, all the money belongs to whoever coded it and it's up to him to "share" any money made off my idea. But that's only if there's money to be made.

It just seemed incredibly beyond belief and revealed the kind of thinking that makes me reluctant to discuss it openly with programmers. Like there's no real money on the table yet, but even hypothetical proceeds are automatically his property to share with me as he sees fit.

It's like, if this is how it is when the money's not real yet, I can only imagine what it would be like if it was really on the table ...

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#36

Post by NSX2 » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:41 AM UTC

whacked_new wrote: post #19

NSX2 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that make a difference? Let's just say it's something that I know more about than however many PhDs they have looking into it and no matter how smart they are or what their budget is, it will be impossible to replicate the conditions that led to the insights I've gained about why things developed as they did and how to apply it to the business world. Not saying it's because I'm smarter or anything, it's just…

I have a friend who's been through a similar position, except in the hardware world. Last year he got a full time job, and while he says he still wants to pursue his idea, the likelihood is diminishing every day. Just for reference, he's a Ph.D. just above 30, and his idea comes from something he discovered coincidentally from his research. If it is really a good idea, find a partner who complements your skills. Asse…

This was an interesting post; thanks. The tricky part for me is it's apparently not obvious in a perception way, (at least not for others, to me it seems so obvious I can't believe it wasn't done years ago), but once you "get it" then it's easy and obvious to get.

You may be right about the "good enough" part. Good enough with huge marketing seems to win quite often in the marketplace.

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#37

Post by curi » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:48 AM UTC

NSX2 wrote: post #27

curi wrote: post #23

Why not call IBM? You might enjoy it. More resources. Maybe you can make progress faster. Going it alone is hard. It's necessary if no one agrees with you, or no one else would do it right. But here? I don't see the compelling reason not to team up with IBM. You'll cooperate with people and see valuable work done; you'll be part of something good and effective.

That might work. If it doesn't, I'll threaten to publish everything online for free, thus negating their own efforts and rendering their money spent into a black-hole of no return.

if you haven't noticed, your thread is dead. also my votes don't count now like rms'.

btw don't make threats lightly, and maybe you shouldn't post about them in public in advance.

edit: i don't know why it's dead. and your reply to this is dead too and i can't reply to it. but the parent of this comment is not dead.

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#38

Post by rms » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:50 AM UTC

Hey, you have "email me" in your profile info, but a feature of this site is that the email box in your profile only shows up to administrators. So you need to write your email address again in your about me.

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#39

Post by NSX2 » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:54 AM UTC

SwellJoe wrote: post #20

NSX2 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I could find some programmers who won't dismiss my value after I've transferred my insights, I'd gladly do it. But judging from the thinking processes of what I see on posts here ... Just to give an example, a few days ago a "bored developer" posted a post saying he was looking for good ideas. Whenever I see MBA/Financial-types posting on Hacker News looking for programmers, the response is usually, "Why should I…

You've made the mistake of believing an idea has value. It doesn't. An idea plus a good execution of it has value. If you can't convince a developer that you bring needed value to the execution of that idea, and you can't pay developers to work on your idea, then you have nothing. In six years you could have learned to program well enough to build a kickass demo--the fact that you haven't makes it pretty clear to dev…

I find it funny how in a programmer's mind it's "my idea" and why should they work on "my idea" ... but if it takes off and there's any money to be made, all of a sudden all the results are "theirs" and why should they "share" any subsequent results with me?

So if the results haven't happened yet, it's just my idea. If the results = lots of money, it's all theirs to share with me as they see fit.

To paraphrase you, you can't really blame me for being cautious with programmers, especially if this thinking is typical of what goes on in their minds, right?

Re: Ask YC: To continue, or not to continue ... how do you know?

#40

Post by NSX2 » Thu, Mar 06, 2008, 6:56 AM UTC

curi wrote: post #37

NSX2 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might work. If it doesn't, I'll threaten to publish everything online for free, thus negating their own efforts and rendering their money spent into a black-hole of no return.

if you haven't noticed, your thread is dead. also my votes don't count now like rms'. btw don't make threats lightly, and maybe you shouldn't post about them in public in advance. edit: i don't know why it's dead. and your reply to this is dead too and i can't reply to it. but the parent of this comment is not dead.

Why is my thread dead? I looked over the guidelines ... what rule did this break?

Edit: What da? Everything I post is auto-dead? I looked at the guidelines I can't find something I obviously crossed over, so ...