Germany’s Chinese investment problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#71

Post by timthelion » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:23 PM UTC

When the Czech republic and other ex-soviet states dropped communism and started "moving west", the west greeted these countries with open arms and a chorus of "opening your countries up to foreign investments will spur growth and make your economies flower!" The Czech Republic responded, by allowing foreign investments essentially without reservations. This lead to a highly corrupt fire sale, called the "privatization process" in which state assets were sold off for far bellow market price to foriegn investors. Czech people, just comming out of communism, of course, could not afford to invest in their own country. Now, most of the valulable assets have been sold off, and the Czechs, to a large extent, live in a country which they do not own.

Now, when the Chineese do the same thing, but in much fairer circumstances (Germany is hardly recovering from a repressive communist regeim), we're crying foul? I do not like foreign investment, but a part of me is satisfied, that the West is finally getting a taste of it's own medicine. Not that it will reverse the damage done, and not that two wrongs make a right.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#72

Post by shanwang » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:23 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #44

bjshepard wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a plenty democratic place, I recommend coming and observing it with your eyes, asking people here questions, and assessing the history of the revolution yourself.

With all due respect... I have been there. I went on a business trip to visit our offshore development office in Beijing. A few of the devs went sightseeing with me one weekend and we ended up going to see the forbidden city. The cab dropped us off at Tienamen Square and I asked if we could spend some time there before going across the street. There was general consternation as to why I was interested in such a borin…

As a Chinese I have to say it's hard to believe “Not one of the six Chinese devs had ever seen that photo or had any knowledge of what happened there”, it's more likely they don't want to tell you what they really think.

When I was in Uni, the Tiananmen square videos are all over the university intranet, including the documentary shot by Hongkong journalist and some shorter documentaries made by the west in later times. Everyone in my class has watched them and we all know what happened on 04/06/1989.

The censorship power of chinese government has been greatly over estimated.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#73

Post by paradite » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:24 PM UTC

jhasse wrote: post #66

paradite wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why every single discussion about China has to touch this issue and this is the first thing people do when they visit China. Do you talk to Germans by starting off discussing how Hitler killed millions of people? Do you talk to Japanese people about WW2 and how was the experience being bombed by nukes after saying hello? Do you expect non-US citizens to start talking to you about the massacres of i…

The difference is that if you start a discussion with Germans about Hitler, they will probably know more about it then you, because it gets taught in schools.

Yes, Germany is doing great. Not sure about US and Japan though.

The last time I heard, Japanese is trying to modify their textbook to downplay its involvement in WW2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_history_textbook_cont...

How's US history lesson? Do you all get taught about the genocides of native Americans? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#Americas

Bottomline is, every country has its own unpleasant history, maybe China has more of those and is not willing to share them with its citizens. But as a foreigner visiting China, is it a nice gesture to poke about it with people you barely know?

Sorry for being awfully off-topic. Just had to type this out. Won't reply to anything further.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#74

Post by shanwang » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:27 PM UTC

jhasse wrote: post #66

paradite wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why every single discussion about China has to touch this issue and this is the first thing people do when they visit China. Do you talk to Germans by starting off discussing how Hitler killed millions of people? Do you talk to Japanese people about WW2 and how was the experience being bombed by nukes after saying hello? Do you expect non-US citizens to start talking to you about the massacres of i…

The difference is that if you start a discussion with Germans about Hitler, they will probably know more about it then you, because it gets taught in schools.

True, but try talking to a Japanese about WWII, and you'll be surprised how little they know about what happened, it's NOT taught in school, not all the facts.

Government brainwash is not exclusive to communist countries.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#75

Post by inimino » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:29 PM UTC

curun1r wrote: post #44

bjshepard wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a plenty democratic place, I recommend coming and observing it with your eyes, asking people here questions, and assessing the history of the revolution yourself.

With all due respect... I have been there. I went on a business trip to visit our offshore development office in Beijing. A few of the devs went sightseeing with me one weekend and we ended up going to see the forbidden city. The cab dropped us off at Tienamen Square and I asked if we could spend some time there before going across the street. There was general consternation as to why I was interested in such a borin…

The Tiananmen square incident is well known outside of China but almost nothing else about China is. The average American who can tell you a story about the tank man very likely can't name three Chinese leaders since Mao.

Inside China, educated people tend to be familiar with the event but discussing it with a tourist is absolutely the last thing they are going to do.

There are many possible interpretations of your anecdote, but I wouldn't read too much into it. With all due respect, you brought up a minor (to them) and yet sensitive point of Chinese history, and your guests, reasonably enough, declined to discuss it with you. Another way of saying it might be that you committed a social faux pas and they changed the topic in a way that saved as much face as possible for everyone.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#76

Post by bogomipz » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:31 PM UTC

>"“To have a major Chinese shareholder is a huge benefit in opening doors,” Gordon Riske, CEO of Germany-based Kion, parts of which were acquired by Chinese state-owned Weichai Power in 2012, said during this week’s Hamburg Summit, a conference on EU-China economic relations."

My concern is that those doors might only open in one direction though from China into another country. Will any of these acquisitions result in Germany having an easier time doing business in mainland China?

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#77

Post by noir-york » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:31 PM UTC

trinkgeld wrote: post #70

noir-york wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a ridiculous comment. The Chinese Communist Party has not found an "equilibrium" - it imposes it at gunpoint. Freedom of speech does not interfere with economic growth, it underpins it!

[deleted]

There is a difference between stability, which is bottoms up and inherent to the system, and order which is imposed top down. The population already revolts - hundreds of times a year around China. The economy is obviously not efficient; entire ghost cities are a sad example, as is the stock market volatility and extraordinary market interventions by the state of a few months ago.

You come across as a apologist for the current regime.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#78

Post by Create » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:31 PM UTC

timthelion wrote: post #71

When the Czech republic and other ex-soviet states dropped communism and started "moving west", the west greeted these countries with open arms and a chorus of "opening your countries up to foreign investments will spur growth and make your economies flower!" The Czech Republic responded, by allowing foreign investments essentially without reservations. This lead to a highly corrupt fire sale, called the "privatizati…

This is one of the reasons why Europe is falling apart. The hidden cynical double standard always trumped good will. Brexit voters were unusually open (in a secret ballot) about east-west relationships.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#79

Post by wowoc » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:33 PM UTC

timthelion wrote: post #71

When the Czech republic and other ex-soviet states dropped communism and started "moving west", the west greeted these countries with open arms and a chorus of "opening your countries up to foreign investments will spur growth and make your economies flower!" The Czech Republic responded, by allowing foreign investments essentially without reservations. This lead to a highly corrupt fire sale, called the "privatizati…

The same happened in Poland (and other countries from behind the Iron Curtain). Most stuff here has German or French owners now.

Re: Germany’s Chinese investment problem

#80

Post by vbtemp » Fri, Nov 25, 2016, 1:37 PM UTC

stupidcar wrote: post #30

simonh wrote: post #3

"Oh woe is us. Who will save us from downing in all this Chinese money." There were exactly the same concerns about Japanese investment back in the 80s. Now doing business with Japanese firms and companies like Sony owning major American firms is just natural. They're not weird alien creatures from space anymore, they're our business partners and investors. It's normal. The same will happen with China.

This seems to ignore the main objection. It's not that Chinese companies are investing in European economies, it's that these companies are run by the Chinese state, and that China is not providing reciprocal access to its own market to Western companies. This is not natural free-market activity, it is a state-sponsored effort to take technology and expertise from European companies and feed it into state-owned Chine…

Thanks for this comment, incredibly well put.