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What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

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Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The term "full stack" often only seems to denote someone with both front- and back-end experience; anything below the server application is often considered the domain of "operations". I do think it would be nice if the term carried more meaning, but given most companies are running their systems on top IaaS/PaaS offerings from Amazon/Google/Microsoft/etc and tend not to care about things beneath the application laye…

> anything below the server application is often considered the domain of "operations" So people who write operating systems and virtual machines are 'operations'? I don't think that makes sense.

They were talking about front end dev, backend dev, and full stack dev. Those distinctions are only applied in web development. Grandparent post thought full stack meant knowing about deployment and setting up deployment environment too which goes beyond full stack into the realm of operations.

Outside of web development I haven't heard about such distinctions like backend or frontend. There are application developer, system developer etc.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#342
Jesus Christ. To think I had to go to college for 4 years to get my CS degree, at the same time be an intern, take part in GSoC, and then work as a backend engineer for ~3 years only to make 1/66 what this guy is making in another part of the world.

:|

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#343

Jesus Christ. To think I had to go to college for 4 years to get my CS degree, at the same time be an intern, take part in GSoC, and then work as a backend engineer for ~3 years only to make 1/66 what this guy is making in another part of the world. :|

Where are you making ~$1.8k/year?

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note I'm not saying to do interviews in Python and ruby but if you're solid in one of them it's like real working pseudocode compared to Java c# c++. But use your a#1 solidest language. Unless u have more than one and that language makes a particular problem trivial.

I am most comfy with Python but think it is the wrong language for me to do coding interviews. When I was in school, I was taught intro CS in C and Java. I got tripped by a fairly CS 101 question even though I use Python very productively and regularly at work. In C or Java, I'd be able to knock off that question easily.

As I said, it depends. If it's text heavy, python or ruby (or perl) is likely the best. If it uses a lesser known data structure, maybe java with it's massive set of libraries. If it's bit twiddling or memory intensive, then maybe c++ is the right answer. But a lot of questions are trivial in ruby or python. 3sum can be done in 2 lines of ruby (how I wish it was one, would be cooler).

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#345

I just hate how these "bootcamps" are only in it for the money and then they have the audacity to tell their students to LIE on interviews. How about you actually pick a language YOU love, make projects, improve. Node.js LUL

At the bootcamp I went to (Origin Code Academy), those without previous experience are told to emphasize what they've learned in 12 weeks if this is more or less their first contact with coding. At no point were we told to lie or bend the truth. All of our LinkedIn accounts mention the time in the bootcamp. The advice was all about presenting yourself in a way that emphasized either your ability to learn, raw skills if you had some previous experience, or accomplishments if your final project was especially impressive.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#346
Speaking from a hiring manager's perspective:

I don't care if you're from a dev bootcamp or an Ivy League school. I care if you care about your craft.

Experience is really hard to quantify, hence the programming tests. They are a crude way to standardized the measurements.

But care for your craft comes through right away. I'd ask them about the stuff they are interested in within their domain, then dig a little deeper to see if they have a strong grasp of what they are talking about. Sometimes I'd debate with them.

I also find that the best engineers I've ever met came from a variety of countries. They turned out to be amazing team members to work with as well. Once you're no longer just looking at US schools and US dev bootcamps, you get amazing selection.

Speaking from an applicant's perspective:

Heck yea, study up no matter how trivial you think it is or how it belittles your years of experience. Remember that this crude method is not an accurate measure of the hiring company's potential or yours. It's just a filtering mechanism for both sides to start a dialog.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#347

On a related tangent, this is why it is so important to have a so called "Emergency fund"! An emergency fund is a little bit of money (often 1-6x average monthly expenses) such that if you get canned you can survive for 1-6 months without having to work so you can focus on applying for jobs and getting a new job without having to stress when your next bill is due. I agree that 6 months living expenses is on the high…

I call it FU savings. Mainly because if you get tired of your employer, you can tell them to take their job and shove it. Move on to better pastures, and not have to worry about paying bills while you look.

I've done it twice, and there's nothing like having that fund (and also being unsecured debt-free) backing you up. Each time I made my choice to leave my employer, I had a new job lined up within a couple of months - and I had negotiated a higher salary to boot.

The best way to go about getting such a savings set up is to first plan a realistic budget. Then, pay down any unsecured debt, starting with the smallest debt owed first. Roll that payment, once the debt is paid back, into the next debt, until you have all your debt paid off.

At that point, you should be left with no unsecured debt; a mortgage can be considered OK (as it is secured by your equity) - but if you can pay that off too, so much the better. Usually, though, it's better to keep it for tax deduction purposes.

Don't have a car payment - if you aren't paying cash for a used (but reliable) car, and paying for it in full - you are likely wasting your money.

There's more tips out there than just the above, but them's the basics - basically. Once you become "debt free" in this manner - a great burden will be lifted from your shoulders. I'm serious.

And once you get your FU savings set up (bank for at least 6 months to a year - but ultimately, just keep building the savings as you have available cash - you may never know when you'll need it) - you'll be free to do as you please with your career and goals.

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#349

This whole hardcore quizzing and testing during interviews has to go. As far as I can see, all it does is create selection bias for people who memorize things or like to practice interview questions. Maybe that's just me being too old for that kinda' crap.

Honestly, I think the reason its still around is because it approximates "write FizzBuzz", which people should be asking. People ask the 'quiz' stuff, successfully throw out some bad candidates who talked a good game on experience/theory, and assume its a good way to go. The ideal middle ground is probably to offer ultra-basic code problems, ideally before an onsite. It's awkward, but it really is necessary to filter…

During one time I was using a recruiter to get a position, he had me interview with a company that used an online coding test as a first-level filter. I didn't know what they were going to ask, but I asked if he had any idea - all he would tell me was that it was something like good-ole "fizzbuzz".

So I studied a bunch of stuff. Anything and everything but fizzbuzz (not that I needed to study that). Then I decided to go for the test - which was timed - and...

...fizzbuzz.

I'm sitting there a bit dumbfounded - seriously? So I coded it up from memory; I could have easily pulled a solution down off the net, but I figured "what the hell - let's go old-school" on it. Also - if I just cut-n-pasted something in, and they saw "it took the candidate one minute to code it" - they might suspect something, then google search the plagiarized code. No good.

So - I coded it up; it was in PHP, but the job was supposed to be for javascript/node (???) - so I wrote it as a class, then I spent the remainder of the time optimizing it - making it the fastest FizzBuzz solver I could, complete with tests and demonstration code. I took up the entire available time, and submitted that. I made sure to add proper PHPdoc comments to everything.

...and I got an "in-person" interview as a result. At the end of that was an another "live coding" session - this one using javascript for a "single page" app. They left me to it, and I got everything coded up inside of 15 minutes or so (there was a paper document laying out what the challenges were in the example code). They were watching my progress via screen sharing.

Apparently I completed the task quicker than other applicants. I later learned that some applicants just sat there unable to do anything (not even google around for help!), or they would take convoluted paths to implementing the changes; not necessarily wrong answers, just not efficient ones - and would be sitting there doing this for a couple of hours (at which point the interview would be brought to a close).

At the end, I got the offer.

Ultimately - those are the kind of challenges I like - give me a real coding assignment, something close to what you are really working on. In this case, it was also in two different languages - so I could also help to "bridge gaps" between a PHP team and a javascript team as needed (added value for the employer).

I really dislike whiteboard coding - completely unrealistic, and while I gather why it is a widely used tool, I think there are better ways to gauge a developer's competence for the position - and actual coding challenges to solve problems seems like one of the best ways to do so (though I also understand that it is very time consuming - so an up-front online timed challenge might be a good pre-filter for on-site or further interviewing).

Re: What I learned from spending 3 months applying to jobs after a coding bootcamp

#350
post #306
post #285

Holy shit. Is this some kind of a joke? > Otherwise, companies automatically categorize us into junior developer roles or tag us as “not enough experience.” ??? What do you think you are after a TWELVE WEEK coding seminar (no matter how intense it was)? It looks frightening to me that he doesn't even know what "junior developer" really means. How ignorant can someone be to NOT think to be a junior dev right after "gr…

100% this! The tech world is due an implosion if this continues, you cant have people with ZERO programming experience beyond a guided 12 week bootcamp being offered anything more than a Junior role?? This single sentence terrifies me: "At Hack Reactor, we’re trained to mask our inexperience. In our personal narratives, we purposely omit our bootcamp education." $120k+ offer for 12 weeks experience - ridiculous, I ho…

Maybe the silver lining will be a switch to a better process for hiring people that doesn't rely on two hours of quizzes or a pressure cooker hazing ritual.
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