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I had a health crisis in France

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221–230 of 312 posts

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#221
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think that he doesn't pay into the system already as part of all people who chipped in whether Austrians or not? Systems like these can be susceptible to abuse and this should be researched and prevented as much as possible but this attitude that any free health care receiver is to be treated with suspicion and distrust till proven innocent is not healthy, sorry for the pun.

>>Systems like these can be susceptible to abuse and this should be researched and prevented as much as possible This is good in theory but very difficult to implement effectively. The conservatives take an extreme condescending view of social welfare and demand extreme checks on it whereas any checks and balances for abuse is what is attacked by many liberals/leftists. That's where immigration is playing a destructi…

i remember reading immigrants (in austria) on average pay more into the system than they get out, because most of them are relatively young and thus still healthy.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#222
post #211
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obama was going in the right direction Can you expand on this? I've heard many critics of Obamacare (that say it doesn't actually work that well in reality), and in general, it seems that it was only tackling a part of the problem. In Europe, you usually have a single payer, single buyer and single executor (or at least each of those is very regulated, so there's less chance for exploitative monopolistic behaviour…

sorry but that boat has already sailed for US. the problem is not just an insurance one. The global tax-payed healthcare of EU could never pay the declared hospital costs of US. EU's public healthcare works because hospital costs (what the state pays instead of citizens) are still reasonable.

Of course it would work for the US, if the US had sufficiently powerful insurance agencies. If hospitals and doctors want a certain amount of money and insurance agencies have the power to say no, these healthcare providers just won't see any patients or only rich ones.

This is how it works in Germany for example. As a hospital you have to accept the money you'll get or you won't get any at all.

The healthcare market in the US is not balanced and this gives healthcare providers to increase prices to ridiculous levels, especially in rural areas.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#223

Healthcare professionals are expensive since they require significant preparation. But there is fishy stuff going on too... 1 liter sterile bag of saltwater for intervenous use in American hospitals is charged at over $300, not considering the cost of the procedure, which can total $500. The pharmaceutical industry also does some sort of disservice to society by inflating prices so much. Then, some money stays at the…

High charges of low cost items are because of the amount of free care hospitals provide. I'm a physician in South Carolina and I take care of a tremendous number of fully employed people with no health insurance. Those of us with insurance pay for those without by paying higher costs. This gentleman would have probably received the same treatment in the US (at least at my facility) and received a $300,000 bill, of which he would probably never pay (bc he cannot). That artificial aortic graft sewn in probably cost the hospital $1500. It doesn't receive that for free. Nor does it expect the 7-8 people in the operating room or the post operative care to work for free. My hospital has an operating profit of less than 1% mainly because it provides so much free care. All I have to do to take care of a patient is declare it an emergency and there is no stopping of whatever care I feel is necessary to care for the patient, e.g., a newly diagnosed cancer patient. This, I believe, is true throughout the USA. And most of the people I take care of have jobs, but no insurance. Ask how many people that clean hotel rooms have insurance. How about people that work call centers? That, plus monopolist practices of the pharmaceutical industry and you have high costs.

And if you want physicians to make 100k - 150k, don't expect me to work 80+ hours a week, not including call. Attorneys give me $500 / hr for consultations, but in my real job I make $80 / hr, but just work a ton more hours a week (no overtime bonus, tho). I don't get sick days. I don't get vacation days. When I don't work, I don't get paid. When I was in private practice, when I didn't work, I not only didn't get paid, but still had to pay rent / malpractice / insurance / electric / employees which was about $5000/week for me. So taking a week off cost me lost revenue and $5000/week. Medicare pays $600 for taking out a gallbladder. Do the math to see how many have to be done to take care of the bills.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#224
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary issue with the system before Obama was two-fold. 1) Too many young people didn't insure themselves meaning that the relatively low cost of having them as insured couldn't be used to balance out the higher cost needed for later on in life. This was putting the primary burden of the cost on the older generations. By forcing everyone to pay the idea was that you could even out the cost. 2) Pre-existing condi…

> 1) Too many young people didn't insure themselves meaning that the relatively low cost of having them as insured couldn't be used to balance out the higher cost needed for later on in life. This was putting the primary burden of the cost on the older generations. As to one, ObamaCare is still failing, because too many young people are able to do the math and realize that, if they don't have chronic conditions or ch…

Also, if you're young, low income, no kids and have no assets declaring bankruptcy (in the event of a high cost health event) seems like a better scenario than being out $150/month for insurance (and still paying for other healthcare costs out of pocket).

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) Too many young people didn't insure themselves meaning that the relatively low cost of having them as insured couldn't be used to balance out the higher cost needed for later on in life. This was putting the primary burden of the cost on the older generations. This shouldn't be a significant problem. In an actuarial sense, the burden of the cost should largely be born by the party with the risk. If you aren't doin…

I understand what you are saying. It's like asking people who don't have a car to pay for car insurance. And I agree generally. But the whole point of insurance is that you make it work because most people wont be needing their insurance so it's a question of interpretation. And yes I think you are right about your solution. I can compare same treatment in Denmark with those of here in the US and the difference is ju…

>It's like asking people who don't have a car to pay for car insurance

Because this is a bit bait-y, I think a better analogy would be to say: "it's like forcing safe drivers to also have insurance".

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#226
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Obama was going in the right direction Can you expand on this? I've heard many critics of Obamacare (that say it doesn't actually work that well in reality), and in general, it seems that it was only tackling a part of the problem. In Europe, you usually have a single payer, single buyer and single executor (or at least each of those is very regulated, so there's less chance for exploitative monopolistic behaviour…

ACA is a step in the right direction. Before US healthcare actually improves for a majority (and not just the uninsured - which isn't a small thing in itself) many more steps is needed. The best way to move ACA in a progressive direction would be to have a large public player in both insurance and as a provider.

> "The best way to move ACA in a progressive direction would be to have a large public player in both insurance and as a provider."

One of the main reasons ACA is more expensive than it should be is because health insurance companies are jacking up the price. The insurance companies are surplus to requirements, once the US gets rid of them (and cuts down on price gouging by the pharmaceutical industry) the overall healthcare costs should drop dramatically.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#227
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know i pay for these things through taxes, but i think in the end it's cheaper if we handle this through a tax system. No huge corporations looking to improve their profits at the cost of service to customers. I like to think of western-europe as an all-in or full-service country. Maybe you pay a bit more, but you get way better service, and by not having to decide and buy yourself you're left with more of what's r…

Australia has exceptional demographics that make this possible - for the moment. It won't last, for the same reason it won't in Europe. But, you get to gloat for quite a while as an Australian, it'll last decades longer than in Europe, where unemployment makes the current situation untenable. To put it bluntly: Australia has a participation rate of 65%, dropping slowly (ie. pretty much perfectly stable for the past,…

I think the story of not having enough young people to pay for older people is missing a bit of evidence. Especially since if labor were scarce we would be seeing increases in wages, inflation and a tight labor market. Instead we have the exact opposite. Really the economy's limiting reactant for the past few years has been demand not labor especially considering that a 2x improvement on productivity is not that big if we consider that worker productivity has been increasing much faster than that over the same period of time. How governments fund their programs is an issue but relative scarcity of labor (or resources) in the economy isn't one of them. This is especially true in europe where lack of inflation has been a real issue for so long.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I-don't-want-to-pay-for-others != I will not insure my health. US health system needs competition more than socialism [1]. [1] https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault EDIT: A really good comment from link above. Mark S - https://mises.org/blog/lack-epipen-competitors-fdas-fault#co... The culprit in virtually all health care or drug price gouging outrages is insurance and "free" taxpayer money. Ameri…

IMO the US health system needs stricter regulation. Switzerland is doing fine with a system very similar to Obamacare, with one important difference: Item prices for health services and goods are regulated by the government. Yes I know, small rich country yada yada - but if you look at it a bit more closely, the average Swiss is not that different from the average American - GDP per capita, median income, most live i…

switzerland is by far the most expensive health care system in the EU. Crucially it doesn't outperform by very much either.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#229
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's another way to look at it that I don't think the USA will be ready to understand any time soon: Universal health and education are (key parts of) freedom. You can even put a market spin on it: None of the risks involved in starting a small business in Australia have to do with health care for myself, or for people who might consider joining my small business as employees. I've never felt as if I'm giving up a…

But someone has to pay for the health care, so they're losing some freedom (money in this case). That person gives up freedom also on the pricing of your healthcare. Note: that person may be you, depending on taxation

You're equating money with freedom where the question is philosophical: can you be 'free' in any meaningful way if your life is burdened by a lack of education, the financial ruin of having been seriously ill, or the handicap of having been poorly treated for a disease?

So yes, that's precisely the trade-off. We accept to lose a little bit of money in exchange for the ability to flourish.

Re: I had a health crisis in France

#230
post #6

> My individual burden, however, is far more reasonable than > an American might assume. I pay an annual income tax of > about 23%. How comes this number is that low? Tax revenue in France account for about 48% of the country's GDP[1]. I'm living in Belgium, and my payroll tax is already higher than these 23%. -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_reven...

Because income tax isn't the whole story. The French also pay social charges: ~8% on salary (and, unlike income tax, no relief on the first €9.700); ~15% on capital income (e.g. a house sale, investments etc.). Employer's also have to contribute to employee's social security (~13%). So, total tax revenue is closer to ~45% of gross salary (excluding TVA tax levied on purchases made with your net income). See: http://www.cleiss.fr/docs/regimes/regime_france/an_a2.html

Long story short: the level of care is fantastic but it costs the country a fortune and there's huge waste within the system (seen it first hand). Note too: most French also pay for private health insurance to augment the default level of state care (for things like dentistry work, optician etc.).

So it ain't cheap but if I had a serious condition there's no place in Europe I'd rather be to have it treated.

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