Earlier quoted context omitted.
And the layman would be wrong, because to judge the significance of a statement -- in sociology as in math -- context is crucial.
Right, but it doesn't matter whether their belief is right or not, what matters is that they believe it.
Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
431–440 of 530 posts
Re: Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
#432Earlier quoted context omitted.
> this is a legitimate reason, I think, for conservatives to be skeptical of the motivations and reasoning here in such a politically-fraught topic. It is a legitimate reason to be skeptical, but not a very interesting starting point for a discussion if one side isn't even interested in rigorously studying the subject at all. There's a vast knowledge gap between the two sides. > Secondly, redefining words with existi…
Wikipedia contains interesting sections on the etymology of both "racism" and "sexism". "Racism" (and the older term, "racialism") have been around since at least 1900. It originally seemed to have mostly related to pseudo-scientific methods of categorizing people by race, and circa WWII, acquired its now most-familiar meaning of "belief in the superiority of a particular race". "Sexism" was coined by analogy to "rac…
No, but we can hope that people would at least listen to those who dedicate their lives to a rigorous study of society rather than dismiss their views based on nothing of the sort. Academics (and journalists) don't explain those terms and the reasoning behind them only in academic publications.
Re: Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
#433Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wikipedia contains interesting sections on the etymology of both "racism" and "sexism". "Racism" (and the older term, "racialism") have been around since at least 1900. It originally seemed to have mostly related to pseudo-scientific methods of categorizing people by race, and circa WWII, acquired its now most-familiar meaning of "belief in the superiority of a particular race". "Sexism" was coined by analogy to "rac…
> We cannot realistically expect the public to read academic publications before voting. No, but we can hope that people would at least listen to those who dedicate their lives to a rigorous study of society rather than dismiss their views based on nothing of the sort. Academics (and journalists) don't explain those terms and the reasoning behind them only in academic publications.
Think of controversial topics such as tobacco, climate change, anti-vaccination, GMOs. Skepticism is great, healthy, and necessary. When those who are honest about the role of skepticism, what "theory" means, and the limits of what they're able to show meet with those who are willing to politicize the debate and speak in absolutes, or at least disingenuously widen the gaps of doubt beyond what's reasonable, who's likely to win that argument in a television sound bite?
Couple this with false balance in reporting, and you have a culture of people who don't know who to believe, and understandably may default to believing evidence that confirms what they already do.
This of course is not a criticism of your comment. This is a situation that I see playing out every day, and it honestly scares me. I don't know how we come back from this.
Re: Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
#434Earlier quoted context omitted.
>There is no need whatsoever for these theatrics over a simple disagreement, for crying out loud. Oh I dunno, it might have something to do with you implying that I support the idea of any person telling any other person to kill themselves. >You will note that I said Twitter has no issues with those with leftist political leanings telling others to kill themselves. That statement is still true, but misleading in the…
you implying that I support the idea of any person telling any other person to kill themselves. !? Holy shit dude, if that's what I implied, I apologize, because that was absolutely not my intent whatsoever. That statement was directed at Twitter, not you. That was an awfully artful way of saying you were full of shit without having to actually admit you were wrong. I was wrong. Better? I was more interested in tryin…
And someone already addressed that alternative flavor of absurdity yesterday too. Twitter has purged hundreds of thousands of terrorism-related accounts and continues to do so. (I'm sure you'll counter with the Hamas account, but you already know why that's a poor counter example when faced with hundreds of thousands of accounts being purged).
BTW, this is called "moving the goalposts". Are you now asserting that Twitter intentionally allows terrorism accounts to proliferate? Or are you implying that they have an account banning quota and they use it all up on conservatives and have none left over for terrorists? God damn, the mental gymnastics here are just something else.
Re: Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
#435Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Homosexual couples do adopt children and given the number of children in the foster care [...] A commonly cited argument, to be sure. Let's look at the magnitude of its impact in practice. Per federal statistics, roughly five hundred thousand US children are in foster care, which is roughly two-thirds of a percent of children in the US, or six per thousand. Figures on the number of children adopted by homosexual co…
Why are you focusing on taxes? Current government marriage is too tied to religion anyway. Make all government "marriages" be civil unions, no tax breaks but all the legal advantages such as sharing insurance and not having to testify against each other etc (this is the main point of getting married currently IMHO). Then make having kids give you tax breaks. This should sate the religious (they can have their marriag…
Re: Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
#436Re: Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
#437Earlier quoted context omitted.
might it not be people who consider themselves right (and not extreme) but no longer feel the Republicans (the traditional right) truly represent them? The far-left/left/center-left etc and right side counterparts are defined by policy and ideology, so whether they feel the GOP was in touch doesn't really make a difference. You wouldn't call the Republicans "right" if they started handing out generous welfare package…
> You wouldn't call the Republicans "right" if they started handing out generous welfare packages to the masses. Like their pre-Obama universal healthcare proposals? The one dimensional political spectrum, with n-right vs n-left, doesn't work at all.
It's not a good way of accurately gauging the political spectrum but I'm not sure I'd say it doesn't work at all. A better method would be to add two more axes so you have x, y and z which would allow you to measure social policy (services, infrastructure), fiscal policy (an increase or decrease in state assets, taxation) and international relations (trade, alliances). The end result would be a kind of tetrahedron that represents the shape of a party's policy (that's not the point of it - it's just an interesting feature of having a three dimensional gauge).
Re: Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
#438Earlier quoted context omitted.
Wikipedia contains interesting sections on the etymology of both "racism" and "sexism". "Racism" (and the older term, "racialism") have been around since at least 1900. It originally seemed to have mostly related to pseudo-scientific methods of categorizing people by race, and circa WWII, acquired its now most-familiar meaning of "belief in the superiority of a particular race". "Sexism" was coined by analogy to "rac…
> We cannot realistically expect the public to read academic publications before voting. No, but we can hope that people would at least listen to those who dedicate their lives to a rigorous study of society rather than dismiss their views based on nothing of the sort. Academics (and journalists) don't explain those terms and the reasoning behind them only in academic publications.
People believe (mostly) in modern medicine not because of our fancy jargon, or our explained logic about why the cell does this or that, but because it obviously works.
I am a liberal living in a conservative state, with many conservative friends and family. I can assure you that many of them have never heard the reasoning and arguments you're referring to. Sure, you can find it on Slate. But they don't read Slate.
But if and when these conservatives are confronted with these arguments, they will mostly agree that implicit bias exists, and accept data about unconscious associations, police profiling, etc.
But they do NOT accept the conclusion drawn from it -- that we are all therefore "racist". Because to them that term is as much or more a political tool for moral condemnation as it is a description of objective reality. And we liberals (I assume) would be kidding ourselves if we didn't admit it has been used this way frequently.
And they also tend to resist the conclusion that we ought to do this or that about it -- because science, if sociology claims to be one, never does or can tell us what we ought to do, only what is reality (the is-ought problem). Once we start talking about what we should do, we are completely outside the realm of science.
Re: Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
#439Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Gay people getting married deprives no one of anything. There's an opportunity cost. I expanded on that a few days ago, and rather than rehearse it again, I'll link the answer I gave to "What do anti-gay-marriage people gain?": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12933668
Your assertion that LGBT rights activists didn't come up with civil unions isn't backed in history. In fact during the time DOMA was proposed many activists supported civil unions as a compromise. It was the right wing that chose to oppose that as well as the ENDA bill even when transgender protections (for folks like me) were ejected from the bill. So, I suggest you correct your statements on that post to be histori…
Re: Twitter Suspends Prominent Alt-Right Accounts
#440Earlier quoted context omitted.
If that were the argument I was making, you'd have a point. But it's not, although I can see how it would be misgathered as such. The essential difference I see isn't one of individual probability of parenthood, but of aggregate. Not all heterosexual couples rear children, true. But the likelihood of a randomly selected example rearing children is vastly higher than that for a randomly selected homosexual couple. Tha…
So instead of changing the tax code to be more specific (change the marriage tax benefits to child-rearing benefits) you're proposing we deny one of humanity's oldest and most important rituals (which means a lot to people intrinsically and symbolically, having just married my wife I know the feeling) to an entire group of people? Yeah I feel like you're post-rationalizing a gut feeling, because you didn't think too…
That's actually closer to what I'd consider preferable, which would be no changes to existing marriage rights, but a federal civil union statute with marriage-level financial benefits contingent upon child-rearing. But such a thing would never be taken seriously on either side of the political crevasse - far too much for conservatives, far too little for progressives, thus decried from both sides. Is it too soon to bemoan the equation of nuance with assault in the modern American political environment?
> deny one of humanity's oldest and most important rituals [...] to an entire group of people
An entire group of people who have never in Western history, perhaps not even in human history overall, had access to that ritual, until the Supreme Court last year discovered in the Constitution a right heretofore unknown. It is very hard to overstate the extent to which this represents an upheaval of tradition, and such things don't happen in a vacuum - or, utopianism notwithstanding, without consequence. Being myself a member of that roughly one percent of the population which has been led to believe it may enforce its will upon the whole without fear of backlash, I don't think it is too hard to imagine what kind of "gut feeling" there might be somewhere in the back of my mind as I speak on this subject, as I've so often done over the last few years.
It's possible my analysis lacks accuracy, although that's yet to be demonstrated, and falling back on insinuations of bigotry doesn't really indicate confidence in one's arguments. But if you want to know what motivates me to concern myself with the subject in the first place, you need look no further than fear. I don't want to find myself in a war, and I really don't want to find myself in a war my side is all but guaranteed to lose - and one in a hundred isn't the kind of proportion that's conducive to a win. But some people seem to want to start one, and to put me and mine in it. They say it's for our benefit, but I've been observing and comparing their claims and their actions for some decades now, and I think they are lying. I also see no reason to expect that, when all the heavy things they've so blithely flung into the air start coming down on people's heads, they'll feel any need to stick around and share the horror they've let us in for. That seems to me like an outcome toward which it's eminently reasonable to look with trepidation.
We'd got by this long without being able to marry. We could've been satisfied with Lawrence v. Texas, which is an amazing accomplishment in its own right, and given it another generation or two before we told the rest of America again that it could take its morality and shove it even further this time. No, that's not ideal, but what is? Nobody ever promised us, or anyone else, an easy life. Nobody ever promised us a just world, by our lights or anyone else's. And the whole concept of progressivism revolves around gradualism, or so I'd been given to understand - the idea, I gather, being that of modifying morality over successive generations by a process mainly centered on education and subtle social pressure, rather than forcible reengineering of whole swaths of society at a time. Quibble though I may with the nature of such a process and the purposes to which it might be put, I at least have to admit that it has a reasonable chance of working. Trying to do everything in the space of half a generation like this is liable to get a hell of a lot of us killed, and to leave those who aren't worse off than they were at the start. I guess that's easy to contemplate for people who don't stand to suffer as a result of it. Here on what's liable to be the pointy end, maybe not so much.