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Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

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Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#311

Post by kuschku »

int_19h wrote: post #207
RivieraKid wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would say "it's simply superior in every imaginable metric other than cross-platform implementations of the compiler/VM" but that's just my opinion. Not by a big margin. Java 8 has lambda functions, which used to be the most painful aspect of the language for me.

It does them. But it repeats the story with generics, where back-compat (in this case, lack of reified generics) requires hacks for acceptable performance. For example, in Java, you have this: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/api/?java/util/function... Note all the permutations. This is necessary, because there's no way to define a generic interface that would have acceptable perf, due to boxing. So you end up de…

> This is necessary, because there's no way to define a generic interface that would have acceptable perf, due to boxing.

Actually, that's going away with Java 9 (or 10). Luckily.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#312

Post by flinty »

So if you were to build a time machine and go back to 2004 and told some one the following, which do you think they will believe:

Microsoft joins Linux foundation and has a seat on the board

Google joins .NET foundation

Trump is president of the United States

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#313

Post by cm2187 »

vintagedave wrote: post #310
cm2187 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Xamarin is a bit of a hack. What we really need is a cross platform solid (i.e. not javascript) language supported natively. What would be ideal would be that Apple, Google and Microsoft sit together and agree on a common language and GUI API that would work on Android, iOS, Windows, MacOS and Linux natively.

C++? https://www.embarcadero.com/products/cbuilder Or for something more like C#, Delphi? https://www.embarcadero.com/products/delphi Both these platforms, which include a cross-platform UI library including native controls, are Windows, iOS, Android, macOS, and Linux in the next release.

The thing with C++ is that it's a hard language. I understand the power for low level stuff, and it is available already. But for 99% of apps, a higher level language like java or c# is really what we need.

Even C# is starting to show its age. Perhaps it's the occasion to reboot it. Start from scratch based on modern concepts with a truly cross-platform language.

With support from Microsoft + Google + Apple, and cross platform across Windows, MacOS, Linux, iOS and Android, adoption would go to 100% (or 11!) on month 1.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#314

Post by eropple »

mmgutz wrote: post #294
eropple wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most developers use Windows, where VS Professional (under the badge of VS Community) is free. The set of developers who use Linux and OS X (and I mean, I am one) is not representative of developers of a whole.

You mean most .NET developers use Windows?

I mean most developers, period, use Windows, on a worldwide basis. Most web developers use Windows. Most C/C++ developers use Windows. Most Android developers use Windows. Almost all .NET developers use Windows--but most developers, period, use Windows.

Windows is the de facto standard in most places that aren't chasing the leading edge.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#315

Post by invalidname »

naasking wrote: post #303
bottled_poe wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> C# is similar but better Oh really? Why?

Better operators, properties, lambdas, a standard library that exploits lambdas pervasively, type inference, simple generators and async/await. Java has anonymous classes and static interface members as the only real advantages over C#.

I work a lot with Java and C# and you just described the reasons I prefer Java (which FYI has lambdas today).

The async/await API's and their rigid nature was torture and the language was overly loose as if users asked for everything and got it... The reason I left C++ for Java 20 years ago is the things it removed and discarded (e.g. operator overloading) C# to me is a step back in the direction of "everything but the kitchen sink".

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#316

Post by int_19h »

pjmlp wrote: post #286
bitmapbrother wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The JVM reference inferred non mobile.

There are lots of J2ME in use, in spite of Android.

Yes, and it has always had horrible perf, especially when it came to memory. Standard techniques to reduce memory pressure included never ever instantiating your classes. So basically everything is a static method, and the only data types you can use are primitives, since Java doesn't have structs (exactly the problem that this thread pointed out at the beginning). So people would instead preallocate global arrays of primitives, and referenced their elements by index, if they needed to pass something like a record or an object around.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#317

Post by pjmlp »

int_19h wrote: post #316
pjmlp wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are lots of J2ME in use, in spite of Android.

Yes, and it has always had horrible perf, especially when it came to memory. Standard techniques to reduce memory pressure included never ever instantiating your classes. So basically everything is a static method, and the only data types you can use are primitives, since Java doesn't have structs (exactly the problem that this thread pointed out at the beginning). So people would instead preallocate global arrays of…

> exactly the problem that this thread pointed out at the beginning

Sure, hence why I started it. :)

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#318

Post by pjmlp »

PeCaN wrote: post #224
mr_overalls wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hear of the JVM's legendary capabilities, the result of so many million engineer-hours baked in. What would be required to bring the CLR into parity with it?

Generally when referring to the JVM's performance people are talking about IBM J9, Azul Zing, HotSpot, etc, while Android has its own VM. Additionally, most high-performance JVMs are optimized for long-running server applications, wile the CLR is optimized more for desktop applications (considerably better startup time, is fast without requiring lots of warmup, but doesn't do some of the very advanced optimizations J…

Windows Phone doesn't use the CLR at all.

.NET is AOT compiled to native code using the same backend (C2) as Visual C++.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#319

Post by naasking »

invalidname wrote: post #315
naasking wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better operators, properties, lambdas, a standard library that exploits lambdas pervasively, type inference, simple generators and async/await. Java has anonymous classes and static interface members as the only real advantages over C#.

I work a lot with Java and C# and you just described the reasons I prefer Java (which FYI has lambdas today). The async/await API's and their rigid nature was torture and the language was overly loose as if users asked for everything and got it... The reason I left C++ for Java 20 years ago is the things it removed and discarded (e.g. operator overloading) C# to me is a step back in the direction of "everything but t…

> The async/await API's and their rigid nature was torture

Way better than callback hell. The only awkwardness surrounds streams of tasks.

Operator overloading is a necessity. Matrices, big integers and so on, all require the familiar operators for clear code. Type inference is here to stay, and every new language has it. The fact that every language is also trying to adopt a streaming API like LINQ should also tell you something.

I'm afraid you're on the losing side of history on all of these points. C# does include a lot, and I would certainly prefer a single uniform abstraction to handle many things, ie. generators and async/await can be unified under coroutines or something similar, but the proliferation of "kitchen sink" features is not nearly as bad as you imply.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#320

Post by Kipters »

xorxornop wrote: post #298
Kipters wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tizen doesn't run UWP apps

Not yet - but it does run Xamarin Forms apps, and I'd be _very_ surprised if the syntax for Xamarin Forms and UWP isn't integrated at some point soon... They're both XAML based.

UWP is more than XAML, i.e. it isn't tied to .NET in any way, Xamarin is
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