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Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

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Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#271

Post by JacobiX »

john_reel wrote: post #177
KirinDave wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that Microsoft is aggressively pledging about patents, open sourcing with very clear and explicit licenses, and making industry-level promises that imply they're serious about making .NET Core an open and usable platform. It would be nicer if there was a managed langauge platform that was not tied to an entity with a history of patent litigation, but let's not lose our sense of scale here. The degre…

Google uses OpenJDK now. Nothing to worry about.

OpenJDK remains an Oracle project and all contributors should sign the Oracle Contributor Agreement (OCA). Although, an agreement of this nature exists in some other open source communities. But I feel, hesitant to grant Oracle the following rights : - License any patents bearing on your contributions to Oracle. - Assert that you are legally entitled to grant Oracle these rights. - Oracle have full copyright ownership of all the code in that project.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#272

Post by alkonaut »

mr_overalls wrote: post #131
KirinDave wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's already there? The CLR is a well maintained and engineered system. Why do you believe otherwise?

At one time, the JVM had superior configurability - many more runtime options for aggressive garbage collection, profiling, optimization, and debugging. But maybe you're right - it's been a few years since I made a looked at the comparison.

The JVM initially targeted more diverse systems than the CLR (desktop only) so perhaps the JVM needed more configuration options.

As far as I understand it, it was a design goal for the CLR to not require those configuration options.

In fact, a lot of the design of both the CLR and C# can be easily traced to various shortcomings and pain points of Java (type erasure, value types, versioned modules, exceptions in method signatures etc).

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#274

Post by bsaul »

dom96 wrote: post #83
patates wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dart doesn't have the adoption yet and has a different plan when it comes to mobile ( https://github.com/flutter/flutter ). I love Go, but it's not really a suitable language to do UI, or anything that deals with data models. C#, however, is a perfect replacement for Java, most of the times. I would say "it's simply superior in every imaginable metric other than cross-platform implementations of the compiler/VM" but…

Why do you consider Go unsuitable for UI development?

well, objects are great for mutable state encapsulation. a view , a scrollbar, a listview, etc are all highly mutable ( 60 times a second) and you can very well organize all of them in a 2 or 3 level hierarchy of inheriting classes ( a listview is a kind of view).

but, you may probably as well organize them as nested property sets each of which containing the other ( like a listview contains a view part and a list part). Not sure the result will be as elegant, but i'm curious to look at the result.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#275

Post by bsaul »

patates wrote: post #118
dom96 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you consider Go unsuitable for UI development?

You can't have generic functions that can wrap data so you end up passing concrete models or interfaces to views - no generic view-models for you. The inflexibility of the type system isn't a big deal when you are working on network applications or tools, but causes serious duplication when you do anything that passes around concepts internally.

i don't think generic is relevant to GUI. objective c didn't have generics, and i don't think it mattered in any way when they built cocoa.

now generics is a problem of its own when working with data and algorithms, but they managed to get along with it in the backend so far, so...

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#276

Post by dx034 »

topbanana wrote: post #173
Nullabillity wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * It's not owned by Oracle So you replace one lawsuit-happy DB company with... another lawsuit-happy DB company.

The point of the .Net foundation is that it isn't owned by Microsoft. I'm not convinced Microsoft is as lawsuit-happy as Oracle.

Currently not, but that can change with the next CEO.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#277

Post by zigzigzag »

PeCaN wrote: post #224
mr_overalls wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always hear of the JVM's legendary capabilities, the result of so many million engineer-hours baked in. What would be required to bring the CLR into parity with it?

Generally when referring to the JVM's performance people are talking about IBM J9, Azul Zing, HotSpot, etc, while Android has its own VM. Additionally, most high-performance JVMs are optimized for long-running server applications, wile the CLR is optimized more for desktop applications (considerably better startup time, is fast without requiring lots of warmup, but doesn't do some of the very advanced optimizations J…

HotSpot at least doesn't have terrible startup time. 50msec for Hello World and about 500msec to get a JavaFX window on the screen with a button in it.

The .NET CLR isn't really "fast without requiring lots of warmup". It's a much simpler design that out of the box simply compiles each method the first time it's used. It doesn't "warm up" because it doesn't do profile guided or speculative optimisations at all. The weakness of the CLR is one reason C# pushes more optimisation complexity onto the developer e.g. having to mark virtual methods explicitly instead of methods being virtual by default. With respect to memory usage I guess it's not much different.

There are JVMs designed for old candybar feature phones (J2ME etc). The issue is not "can you make a mobile JVM" as the answer is clearly yes for any type of phone, even very old ones. The issue is "how much fancy technology can you fit in that space".

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#279

Post by zigzigzag »

JacobiX wrote: post #271
john_reel wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google uses OpenJDK now. Nothing to worry about.

OpenJDK remains an Oracle project and all contributors should sign the Oracle Contributor Agreement (OCA). Although, an agreement of this nature exists in some other open source communities. But I feel, hesitant to grant Oracle the following rights : - License any patents bearing on your contributions to Oracle. - Assert that you are legally entitled to grant Oracle these rights. - Oracle have full copyright ownershi…

But all sorts of projects have such requirements, any open source project by Google does. That isn't unique or special to Oracle.

Re: Google joins .NET Foundation as Samsung brings .NET support to Tizen

#280

Post by zigzigzag »

cryptarch wrote: post #56
_cmmn wrote: post #2

Nice. Now please make C# a first-class citizen in Android and start to migrate from Java to C#.

Please just make C-ABI's first-class citizens (especially on the GUI front), then all other languages can bind to that.

ART/Dalvik don't implement it, but Java ways for many languages to interop with each other for a long time already and is pushing the limits on that even further. The C calling convention as the lowest common denominator for language interop has been fading away for some time now already. Targeting the Java ABIs/calling conventions gives you access to both C libraries via things like JNI/JNA and also Python, JavaScript, Scala, Haskell (Frege), etc.
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