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China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

en.people.cn

181–190 of 235 posts

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#181
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an incremental step on a long road. To be sure, the ultimate goal is to understand how to control the plasma well enough to support indefinitely long pulses. But incremental improvements add up, or rather they compound like interest.

What is the plan to extract energy from these things? Same old heat exchanger > supercritical steam > steam turbine > alternator? Or is there some way of getting electricity out of the plasma directly?

Yes. That also makes it difficult to scale up to energy production - now you need to route a bunch of cooling water plumbing and heat exchangers around it, engineer it to transfer the bulk of the reactor heat output to the cooling water without melting any heat exchangers, then build a turbine/generator rig to attach to it. Might possibly need an extra water loop too, depending on how much neutron flux ends up hitting the water and plumbing when running at a reaction rate sufficient to generate power.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#182

What could possibly go wrong, really.

Not as much as could go wrong with a fission reaction.

And I don't mean to demonize fission power at all. Just wanted to point out that a fusion reaction must be sustained while a fission reaction must be controlled. Of course there's more to that story as well since a fission reactor could be designed with some kind of passive failsafe (e.g. a frozen plug which seals the reactor core or something similar).

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#183

I would love to see a huge effort towards fusion, on the same (or even greater) scale as the Manhattan project or the Apollo program. I had been disappointed in the way that fusion always seemed to be 30 years away no matter how many years went past, but I just assumed that that was because the science was hard and just the way it had to be. https://i.imgur.com/sjH5r.jpg https://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Article…

> Massively abundant, cheap, clean energy should be one of humanity's top priorities. What about the big fusion reactor in the Sky? Shouldn't we go all in on solar? Why is so difficult to harness that source? Maybe the same obstacles make fusion so difficult to pursue.

Why is so difficult to harness that source?

Because there's a hard upper limit of 1367 watts per square meter.

And, practically speaking, you're not going to reach 10% of that (panel efficiency, angles, cloud cover, air transmissivity, weather, damage, dust/dirt, night/dawn/dusk, conduit resistance, storage loss, etc).

That means the only way to scale up is land surface area, about 10,000 square kilometers of solar panels for 1TW power production, covering about 0.1% of the USA.

(Don't get me wrong, I'm just presenting objective numbers. I'm thrilled about Tesla / Solar City pushing rooftop solar with "invisible" tiles, and think every home should be built with at least the whole roof covered with solar panels. Independence is a big deal, and having at least substantial off-grid power is important.)

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#184
post #88

The Manhattan Project cost about $26bn in 2016 dollars, while ITER is expected to cost over $20bn by the time it's done. The problem with trying to solve something like this by throwing money at it too early, is what if the technological approach chosen doesn't work out? The more money you put into it, the more you would waste. Right now there at least half a dozen possible ways Fusion could be achieved commercially,…

ITER is already 9 years late, these big projects have a tendency to get completely bogged down under their own weight.

If I was a gambler I'd put money on one of the privately funded projects succeeding first.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#185
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All we need to invent is the wireless energy receiver! We did, and we've already hit the quantum limit of how efficient they can be. It isn't enough. Well it is enough, but there isn't an efficient method to store or transmit the captured power. Solar is awesome, but the places it is most available also happens to be where it is least needed, in general, I'm aware of Saudi Arabia. It should also be pointed out that S…

To save some people the click -- minimum warming potential by a few less-than-randomly selected sources: Coal: 770 Gas: 410 Rooftop solar: 26 Offshore wind: 8 Nuclear: 3.7 So, the word "vastly" above might be overstating things. Solar certainly isn't the most efficient, but it's pretty damn efficient compared to anything produced by biological processes.

400% and 700% are a vast difference.

I'm not comparing Roof Top solar to Coal or Natural Gas yes very clear winner there. I'm comparing it to Hydro-Electric, Nuclear, Tidal, and Wind where it is by far the dirtiest.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Massively abundant, cheap, clean energy should be one of humanity's top priorities. What about the big fusion reactor in the Sky? Shouldn't we go all in on solar? Why is so difficult to harness that source? Maybe the same obstacles make fusion so difficult to pursue.

Why is so difficult to harness that source? Because there's a hard upper limit of 1367 watts per square meter. And, practically speaking, you're not going to reach 10% of that (panel efficiency, angles, cloud cover, air transmissivity, weather, damage, dust/dirt, night/dawn/dusk, conduit resistance, storage loss, etc). That means the only way to scale up is land surface area, about 10,000 square kilometers of solar p…

If we could use the concept of space elevators and instead floated solar "panels" in the sky we could achieve two things, unimpeded surface area for installation and second a sunshield to cool things off a bit and forestall climatologically induced planetary change.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#187

I would love to see a huge effort towards fusion, on the same (or even greater) scale as the Manhattan project or the Apollo program. I had been disappointed in the way that fusion always seemed to be 30 years away no matter how many years went past, but I just assumed that that was because the science was hard and just the way it had to be. https://i.imgur.com/sjH5r.jpg https://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Article…

> Massively abundant, cheap, clean energy should be one of humanity's top priorities. What about the big fusion reactor in the Sky? Shouldn't we go all in on solar? Why is so difficult to harness that source? Maybe the same obstacles make fusion so difficult to pursue.

> What about the big fusion reactor in the Sky? Shouldn't we go all in on solar?

Perhaps we should not go "all on" anything. Solar is available now, it's getting cheaper by the day, and it's very easy to install and use. But it's intermittent, requires storage, it's not portable except at low levels, and energy density is not that great.

Fusion is obviously not available now. But when figured out, it would have all the strengths of classic nuclear energy without most of its weaknesses.

We should keep deploying solar as fast as possible, while aggressively pushing for fusion research.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#188
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is so difficult to harness that source? Because there's a hard upper limit of 1367 watts per square meter. And, practically speaking, you're not going to reach 10% of that (panel efficiency, angles, cloud cover, air transmissivity, weather, damage, dust/dirt, night/dawn/dusk, conduit resistance, storage loss, etc). That means the only way to scale up is land surface area, about 10,000 square kilometers of solar p…

If we could use the concept of space elevators and instead floated solar "panels" in the sky we could achieve two things, unimpeded surface area for installation and second a sunshield to cool things off a bit and forestall climatologically induced planetary change.

The space umbrella concept.

We may have to do it eventually, seeing as climate science is drowning under a flood of irrationality and lies.

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#189
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we could use the concept of space elevators and instead floated solar "panels" in the sky we could achieve two things, unimpeded surface area for installation and second a sunshield to cool things off a bit and forestall climatologically induced planetary change.

The space umbrella concept. We may have to do it eventually, seeing as climate science is drowning under a flood of irrationality and lies.

Yes, although one wonders what the impact might be on ecosystems with less energy coming in (even if we limited the sunshields to underproductive polar regions).

Re: China’s ‘Artificial Sun’ achieves fusion breakthrough

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a reddit AMA in 2011 where a guy went to China and got stem cell treatments for his paralysis[1] and could walk now. Nobody on Reddit believed him. They basically spent the whole AMA trying to tell him it didn't happen. Then America did it 2016 and everyone was like "The Future is here and we did it first!"[2]. No, the future is already here, it's just not evenly distributed, or maybe it's already happening…

We do tend to diminish achievements from Asia historically. They discovered America first (the whole notion of "discovering" first a place where there already are people is absurd), they got printing first, they mastered gunpowder first... and yet most westerners will name Columbus, Gutenberg, and Europe.

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