Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also, the Dutch are very lenient on drug (recreational) users and the sale of drugs.
I see that as a good thing.
Oh absolutely, I think that's why jails are empty.
Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
171–180 of 183 posts
Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
So child molesters and murders will get out of prison before someone who commits a lot of petty crimes. That doesn't sound very logical to me.
There are two goals: Punishment and Prevention (also deterrence and rehabilitation, but I'm ignoring those). For child molesters and murder, the goal is punishment, and then it's a specific amount of years which are determined as an appropriate punishment. But here the goal is prevention. The two categories can not be compared to each other because they are not the same. They have different goals, target different pe…
>There are two goals: Punishment and Prevention (also deterrence and rehabilitation, but I'm ignoring those).
Well there's your problem, those are usually the goals of justice systems in places like the US. The entire point of this artical that those aren't the goals for the dutch
Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
There are two goals: Punishment and Prevention (also deterrence and rehabilitation, but I'm ignoring those). For child molesters and murder, the goal is punishment, and then it's a specific amount of years which are determined as an appropriate punishment. But here the goal is prevention. The two categories can not be compared to each other because they are not the same. They have different goals, target different pe…
>There are two goals: Punishment and Prevention (also deterrence and rehabilitation, but I'm ignoring those). Well there's your problem, those are usually the goals of justice systems in places like the US. The entire point of this artical that those aren't the goals for the dutch
You think I didn't think of that?
The example at hand was an example of a clear failure of rehabilitation. And when that happened the Dutch had no legal ability (or perhaps desire) to deal with it.
Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
#174The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…
I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to cha…
You have to factor in bias in your job.
The people that are looking for a talented A-tier lawyer are likely the ones that are the most guilty. These guys and gals exhibit Dark Triad[0] tendencies far more than the average labor/service-class defendant does.
If you're a mediocre defense lawyer on public defender detail, you'd probably have a much different perspective on criminals. The poor can't afford lawyers, guilty or innocent.
Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like murder (or most major crimes really) is a very special case. I'd prefer a system where the default is a life sentence (a lifetime for a life feels just) but the option to release after n years if relatives/family of the victim agree to it. It's probably very impractical but would appeal most to my personal understanding of justice.
And that goes back to OP's point. Many countries don't view prison as "just", but as a means for rehabilitation or crime-prevention.
I think it can very much be both. But I feel victims are underrepresented in the rehabilitation discussion. My inner moral compass says they should be involved and it shouldn't all be up to review boards. I'm fully aware that I have a somewhat naive worldview though (I'd expect most victims to understand if someone was rehabilitated and be willing to forgive)
Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
> In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour. As a Dutch guy, I agree with this in general. However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed. For example, there was a news story a while back about some…
I'm sure there are ways to isolate him in say, a psychiatric hospital, where he can get treatment if there's any. Of course, if your point is that certain people are beyond help, then I guess you can always find examples where this is true and then maybe you can set certain rules specific for those extreme cases. But I think that doesn't invalidate the GP's point. In most cases helping the person recover is actually…
> I'm sure there are ways to isolate him in say, a psychiatric hospital, where he can get treatment if there's any.
No, there aren't. You can't force someone into psychiatric care unless they are a danger to themselves or others and even then it's a difficult process.
> But I think that doesn't invalidate the GP's point. In most cases helping the person recover is actually possible so it's worth giving that road a try.
I agree. But the system needs to acknowledge that it simply is not possible for some people. I don't think we should wait for someone to get arrested 100+ times to try a different approach.
Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.
> In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour. As a Dutch guy, I agree with this in general. However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed. For example, there was a news story a while back about some…
"However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed"
That's why there also is involuntary commitment (TBS), where many people are in so-called "long stay" for decades, often until death, but that has been ruled against the declaration of human rights, so there is a possibility of getting released (which, afaik, has never been granted yet)
Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
#178Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
If that's true, then there are lots of genuinely bad people wandering the streets of the Netherlands. If that's true then either 1) they're doing terrible things all the time and the state just isn't doing anything about it (this doesn't seem to be the case), or 2) these "bad" people, bad as they may be, aren't causing much trouble by being amongst the general public.
There are dutch people in this comments section saying that laws are too lenient and that harsher prison sentences are needed. That should count for something. There was one commentor talking about how someone had assassinated a front-running political candidate and gotten off after a measly 12 years. That suggests to me that something is wrong.
There are people saying that US needs harsher laws in the comment section of nearly every article on major US websites, so I would take that with a grain of salt.
Also - "measly" 12 years? I understand the upheaval if he got 3 or 6 years - but 12 is an issue?
Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners
#180The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…
I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to cha…
Your viewpoint is probably biased by whether you are prosecuting criminals or defending.