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Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

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Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#91

Post by ryanwaggoner »

gingerrr wrote: post #79
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What argument are you claiming is weakened? I'm not saying any argument is weakened. This is analogous to what I saw: 1. Article claims X, which is good for software devs as a whole. 2. Software dev #1 says "Hmm...is X even true? Doesn't make sense for reasons A, B, and C." 3. Software dev #2 says "Hey, we're trying to negotiate here and it doesn't matter if X is true or not. You shouldn't even be pointing out that i…

> It's not reasonable to expect other software developers to refuse to raise rational points of inquiry that you've based your argument on because it may result in weakening your argument on the merits. > I'm not saying any argument is weakened. Let's be consistent. > I want to be associated with a community of people who are looking for the truth, even if it leads them somewhere difficult, not protecting themselves…

Haha, that's hilarious. I love how you managed to (non-ironically) try and twist this in your mind about me being the one needing a safe space. Excellent.

I didn't engage on the merits of the discussion for the same reason I didn't say that X is necessarily weakened as an argument (you completely skipped the word "if" in your reading of first quote above), which is that I don't have a particular dog in this fight.

But it's so lazy and intellectually dishonest to fault someone for pointing out that maybe we need more evidence. And to then basically call them a traitor? I felt like commenting on it. So I did. Without any disclaimers of any former mgmt experience so I guess I'm a monster as well.

Enough entertainment for one night, I'm out :)

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#92

Post by ryanwaggoner »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #81
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What argument are you claiming is weakened? I'm not saying any argument is weakened. This is analogous to what I saw: 1. Article claims X, which is good for software devs as a whole. 2. Software dev #1 says "Hmm...is X even true? Doesn't make sense for reasons A, B, and C." 3. Software dev #2 says "Hey, we're trying to negotiate here and it doesn't matter if X is true or not. You shouldn't even be pointing out that i…

I do want to know whether or not X is true, and it does matter. And I do enjoy being part of a community of people who are looking for the truth. The problem is that hacker news is not a place where it's safe to ignore the political effects of your speech and focus purely on epistemic truth. Private mailing list? Sure. In person? Sure. On a public forum where management types will imply that you're an overpaid lazy h…

Wait, so you're implying that "management types" are so stupid that they would have read this article (plus many more like it) and been like "yeah, guess it's better for us to pay the engineers more", but then they see a short comment from someone on a forum saying "hmm, I'm skeptical of this; is there good evidence?" and so the management types are like "whew! never mind! turns out there's no evidence!"

This is simultaneously: a) a bizarrely uncharitable view of "management types" and their intelligence level, b) a clear indication that you don't think the evidence is very good, and c) a ridiculously impractical view of how impossible it is to keep a simple thought from spreading, let alone just occurring.

The fact that the person you were responding to is, in your words, a "management type", and came up with this objection should show how dumb it is to try and keep it out of the discussion. They can clearly think of this objection on their own.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#93

Post by ryanwaggoner »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #84
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please, that's ridiculous. "Pro-worker discussion"? "Former management?" This bizarre class warfare / labor vs. management thing you have going on is so over the top it's ridiculous. This isn't a garment sweatshop in the 1800s. Even if the person you're responding to on some internet forum is the president of the Foundation For Keeping Software Developers from Being Overpaid, it's not unethical for them to jump in…

Sorry for not being explicitly clear about what I found objectionable. Saying that you're retired and working on hobby projects is technically true, but in context heavily implies that you did not have a management background. It's not technically lying, but you can mislead people extremely well by saying particular true things in a particular way. That's why I called it "dishonesty" instead of "lying". And "jump int…

You have a very bizarre view of the world from where I'm sitting.

Saying that you're retired and working on hobby projects is technically true, but in context heavily implies that you did not have a management background.

How on earth is this true? In what universe does someone who is retired except for some hobby projects mean that they were never in management? I literally don't know how to parse that.

And even if it is, how does someone who was "former management" now have no credibility to talk about work/life balance or whether developers are overpaid or underpaid? They don't have a particular dog in the fight anymore, right? Unless, as I suspect, you think that they're "different" somehow, not part of the same class of people as you, and they'll "stick with their own kind."

Every comment you've made seems to me to be bigotry with a thin veneer. I don't know, maybe I'm just privileged in that I've never been in a struggle of labor vs. management. Just don't see the world in those terms. I'm sure you think that means that of course I'm engaged in that struggle, and I'm either lying (because I'm in management), or getting screwed (because I'm labor and management is always screwing labor whether they know it or not). Shrug. I'm happy. Not sure what else to tell you.

The only one here who I see playing status games and pumping up the us vs. them mentality is you.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#94

Post by pmiller2 »

shados wrote: post #39
pmiller2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does someone like you (and me) compete with those people who can sustain the crazy hours?

We don't. Not everyone can be a nobel prize winner. It's okay to be second best sometimes :)

I'm ok with second best. I just want to make sure I can still get hired in X years.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#95

Post by dahart »

StavrosK wrote: post #90
dahart wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm jealous, that's my goal and I feel like four 8 hour days or even five 6 hour days is a sweet spot. I'd take the salary hit in a heartbeat, most employers I have experience with don't want to deal with part time (I've asked). Being self-employed at the moment, I'm contracting to pay bills and working on my company, it's the same thing as a never ending crunch time! I certainly feel like I'm getting more done than…

What you're doing now is very very harmful. I used to do it too, and, because I didn't have specific hours, I would feel like I had to work all the time, and would feel guilty when I wasn't working. The way I solved it was by setting actual work hours and sticking to them. Anything that came in outside work hours could wait until the next day.

Yep, I do feel like I have to work all the time, and I do feel guilty when I'm not working. Pretty sure you're right that I'm doing some damage.

I feel like one of the worst parts about a compressed work schedule is that I've mostly stopped playing & exploring, and exploring is where the good stuff happens. Many of my most important personal developments and achievements were on "fun" time, even if it was work. Doing overtime and working too much like I'm doing now mutes that.

I have some commitments in the short term that mean I can't fix this very quickly, but long term I aim to be where you're at for sure.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#96

Post by ThrustVectoring »

oldmanjay wrote: post #89
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's comments like this that really make me sad about the state of labor solidarity among tech professionals. Like, please, stop torpedoing our negotiation position, especially on a public forum that many technical employers and managers read. On the object level, I have a suspicion that being productive past 40 hr/wk or so has reverse causation for me. It's bad for me to work over 40 hours a week, so that magically…

Save your call for solidarity for people who aren't in an industry where exceptional individual achievement matters this much. I'm not interested in being saddled like a horse to carry a bunch of can't-dos who should be encouraged to find something they aren't dragging down. Solidarity is for line workers who want to be lazy.

That's what I'm trying to do - keep the can't-dos from acquiescing to management demands in a way that makes effective people look lazy. It's the marginally-employed that are the least able to resist management demands for working more hours. If they work more hours than you do, then you're either working more hours for no gain, or you wind up looking like someone who isn't putting in as much effort as others.

Management expectations are a resource we all share, and that includes you. Yes, solidarity helps the lazy. It also helps the hard-working.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#97

Post by ThrustVectoring »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #92
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do want to know whether or not X is true, and it does matter. And I do enjoy being part of a community of people who are looking for the truth. The problem is that hacker news is not a place where it's safe to ignore the political effects of your speech and focus purely on epistemic truth. Private mailing list? Sure. In person? Sure. On a public forum where management types will imply that you're an overpaid lazy h…

Wait, so you're implying that "management types" are so stupid that they would have read this article (plus many more like it) and been like "yeah, guess it's better for us to pay the engineers more", but then they see a short comment from someone on a forum saying "hmm, I'm skeptical of this; is there good evidence?" and so the management types are like "whew! never mind! turns out there's no evidence!" This is simu…

You're missing the core of what I'm concerned about. What I care about is something like "what looking like you're putting in sincere and whole-hearted effort looks like". I oppose publicly talking about how you as a software engineer can put in 45 good hours of work reliably every week and feel like you have good work-life balance for the same reason people make comments if their coworkers over-dress for work.

If you can, and you say that you can, and you don't complain about it, then that becomes expected. This is as true of wearing a suit and tie to work as it is for putting in long hours. Finance is in a really shitty place because of this and I don't want the tech scene to follow suit.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#98

Post by baby »

mi100hael wrote: post #2

How many people out there really keep working on the weekends voluntarily as the author seems to suggest? I'm pretty clear with my coworkers/boss that the only time I'm going to work after-hours or weekends is in case of rare, extreme emergency. There's no expectation that I work weekends, so I'm definitely not going to do it voluntarily. I like programming and like learning new things so I often do work on a side-pr…

As an intern I definitely did work week ends, and as a relatively fresh employee (almost a year) I did it quite often, but I'm doing it less and less. I'd say when the work is good, it tends to overflow in your social life. Some jobs (not all) are mind consuming and can't be left alone so easily when going back home. Although if you're doing it because your boss tells you, then you should find another boss.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#99

Post by deepGem »

This is true if the 40 hours that you spend is on deep work. You are pushing your intellectual limit all the time. Practically this isn't the case right ? Most of our work, whether we like it or not, falls into the realm of JSON parsing. 50-60 hours of such work is still fine in my opinion.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#100

Post by markwaldron »

This! I couldn't agree more. I try to end my day at work with a challenging problem that I won't be able to complete. I think about it a bit on the train ride home, and then it slowly dissipates throughout my night. I eat some dinnner, relax with my fiance and go to bed. By the time I get to work the next day, 90% of the time I'll come up with a solution in 5-10 minutes that I couldn't get to the day before. Also, doing this gives me a clear entry point into the day and that 'winning' feeling you get whenever you solve a tough problem. I highly recommend it.
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