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Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

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Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#81

Post by ThrustVectoring »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #75
gingerrr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd take issue with your claim that the response by GP was the first emotional or attacking blow - that response was to GGP's "easy hipster life" claim, and the implicit claim therein that GP's call for labor solidarity was spoiled whining rather than, perhaps, a call for skilled workers in an industry to support each other's negotiation positions rather than undercut each other. > It's not reasonable to expect other…

What argument are you claiming is weakened? I'm not saying any argument is weakened. This is analogous to what I saw: 1. Article claims X, which is good for software devs as a whole. 2. Software dev #1 says "Hmm...is X even true? Doesn't make sense for reasons A, B, and C." 3. Software dev #2 says "Hey, we're trying to negotiate here and it doesn't matter if X is true or not. You shouldn't even be pointing out that i…

I do want to know whether or not X is true, and it does matter. And I do enjoy being part of a community of people who are looking for the truth.

The problem is that hacker news is not a place where it's safe to ignore the political effects of your speech and focus purely on epistemic truth. Private mailing list? Sure. In person? Sure. On a public forum where management types will imply that you're an overpaid lazy hipster? Yeah no.

If you want a place where people can focus on finding out what's true, you need to make it safe to do that. You're never going to get a truth-seeking discussion about gender or race on r/SRS for exactly that reason. Hacker News is better than most because it's well moderated, but it can't and won't be that way for things that touch on the economic relationships between software developers and their employers.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#82

Post by st3v3r »

dpark wrote: post #49
tirant wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the issue is with your definition of successful. If you only main for professional success, indeed, working more hours will put you at advantage. But having been with already some people on their last days of life, I don't remember any of them regretting of not having spend more time working, but always of having had more time with family and friends.

Clearly the definition here is success at work. Working long hours is unlikely to improve anyone's home situation unless they're impoverished and earning hourly wages or have a home environment so horrible that being at work is preferable.

You said "most successful people". That doesn't clearly mean at work.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#83

Post by supergeek133 »

no_protocol wrote: post #13
supergeek133 wrote: post #10

You know what makes me the most productive? Working when I have the motivation to do so, I don't mean "I only want to work when I want".. But sometimes it'll be midnight, and you'll get that brainpower flowing for some reason (I tend to be a night owl)... Thankfully my position is flexible enough to then take the associated breaks the following day if I need to, or just go home if I'm not super productive (meetings p…

Flexibility like this is amazing for individuals who desire it. I'm in a similar position. I'm not so sure it would work well if I had teammates that needed constant interaction.

I have one, and it's challenging sometimes. Analysis Paralysis really gets under my skin.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#84

Post by ThrustVectoring »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #76
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your deleted comment form elsewhere in the thread: >Well, at the moment I'm (possibly temporarily) retired, doing hobby projects. I have never felt the urge to cross any picket lines. Not mentioning that you're former management is extremely dishonest. Derailing pro-worker discussions like this with condescension and dishonesty is extraordinarily unethical.

Oh please, that's ridiculous. "Pro-worker discussion"? "Former management?" This bizarre class warfare / labor vs. management thing you have going on is so over the top it's ridiculous. This isn't a garment sweatshop in the 1800s. Even if the person you're responding to on some internet forum is the president of the Foundation For Keeping Software Developers from Being Overpaid, it's not unethical for them to jump in…

Sorry for not being explicitly clear about what I found objectionable.

Saying that you're retired and working on hobby projects is technically true, but in context heavily implies that you did not have a management background. It's not technically lying, but you can mislead people extremely well by saying particular true things in a particular way. That's why I called it "dishonesty" instead of "lying".

And "jump into a discussion on the merits" isn't how I'd characterize their behavior so far. Most of what they've done is snark and implications that play stupid bullshit status games.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#85

Post by dpark »

st3v3r wrote: post #82
dpark wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly the definition here is success at work. Working long hours is unlikely to improve anyone's home situation unless they're impoverished and earning hourly wages or have a home environment so horrible that being at work is preferable.

You said "most successful people". That doesn't clearly mean at work.

The entire comment thread is about success at work. Aetherson used the word "work" 3 times and was clearly discussing the impact of working long hours on success in the workplace.

Willfully ignoring context to try to make your point isn't clever.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#86

Post by StavrosK »

dahart wrote: post #29
aetherson wrote: post #11

Yeah, I'd like to see some actual data. Some kind of scientific study, anything. I don't say this because I'm a proponent of work-at-any-cost culture -- I'm not. I work about 45 hours a week, no weekends or nights outside of rare emergencies. That's certainly good for my mood and my relationship with my family and so forth. But I see all these articles in which they suggest that after 40 hours a week, your productivi…

Here's some data & has a bunch of references to more data. http://lunar.lostgarden.com/Rules%20of%20Productivity.pdf The claim is not that 40 is some kind of hard threshold, and if you work any more than that you'll be instantly less productive. The claim is that a steady-state of, say, 60 hours per week is less productive long term. It's actually more productive for a little while, like a month, but then people get…

I don't know about 60 hours per week, but I work 32 hours (four eight-hour days), and it's fantastic. I noticed that Friday was the day I couldn't wait to end, but now I end the week right before it becomes boring. Every Thursday afternoon is "oh, it's the weekend already? Nice!" and I've been doing this for a year or so.

I definitely recommend it if you can take the salary hit.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#87

Post by vibrato »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #53
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound like you're either management or the kind of person who's first to cross picket lines. Anyhow, take out the vitriol and your statement is basically "do you realize that you're supporting the quality of life of software developers?" Yes. Yes I am. I'm a software developer and this stuff is important. I'm opposed to moving towards a negotiated position that gives employers more at the expense of software deve…

Responding with an ad hominem attack, nice. You see your position as supporting software developers, which is reasonable. It's not reasonable to expect other software developers to refuse to raise rational points of inquiry that you've based your argument on because it may result in weakening your argument on the merits. It demonstrates that you care more about winning than about the truth. As a result, you're respon…

An attack on character isn't necessarily an ad hominem fallacy. The poster engaged directly with the argument, and didn't rely on the character attack to make his argument.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#88

Post by dahart »

StavrosK wrote: post #86
dahart wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's some data & has a bunch of references to more data. http://lunar.lostgarden.com/Rules%20of%20Productivity.pdf The claim is not that 40 is some kind of hard threshold, and if you work any more than that you'll be instantly less productive. The claim is that a steady-state of, say, 60 hours per week is less productive long term. It's actually more productive for a little while, like a month, but then people get…

I don't know about 60 hours per week, but I work 32 hours (four eight-hour days), and it's fantastic. I noticed that Friday was the day I couldn't wait to end, but now I end the week right before it becomes boring. Every Thursday afternoon is "oh, it's the weekend already? Nice!" and I've been doing this for a year or so. I definitely recommend it if you can take the salary hit.

I'm jealous, that's my goal and I feel like four 8 hour days or even five 6 hour days is a sweet spot. I'd take the salary hit in a heartbeat, most employers I have experience with don't want to deal with part time (I've asked).

Being self-employed at the moment, I'm contracting to pay bills and working on my company, it's the same thing as a never ending crunch time! I certainly feel like I'm getting more done than a 40 hour week, but maybe I'm not getting enough rest to know the difference. :P

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#89

Post by oldmanjay »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #30
aetherson wrote: post #11

Yeah, I'd like to see some actual data. Some kind of scientific study, anything. I don't say this because I'm a proponent of work-at-any-cost culture -- I'm not. I work about 45 hours a week, no weekends or nights outside of rare emergencies. That's certainly good for my mood and my relationship with my family and so forth. But I see all these articles in which they suggest that after 40 hours a week, your productivi…

It's comments like this that really make me sad about the state of labor solidarity among tech professionals. Like, please, stop torpedoing our negotiation position, especially on a public forum that many technical employers and managers read. On the object level, I have a suspicion that being productive past 40 hr/wk or so has reverse causation for me. It's bad for me to work over 40 hours a week, so that magically…

Save your call for solidarity for people who aren't in an industry where exceptional individual achievement matters this much. I'm not interested in being saddled like a horse to carry a bunch of can't-dos who should be encouraged to find something they aren't dragging down. Solidarity is for line workers who want to be lazy.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#90

Post by StavrosK »

dahart wrote: post #88
StavrosK wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about 60 hours per week, but I work 32 hours (four eight-hour days), and it's fantastic. I noticed that Friday was the day I couldn't wait to end, but now I end the week right before it becomes boring. Every Thursday afternoon is "oh, it's the weekend already? Nice!" and I've been doing this for a year or so. I definitely recommend it if you can take the salary hit.

I'm jealous, that's my goal and I feel like four 8 hour days or even five 6 hour days is a sweet spot. I'd take the salary hit in a heartbeat, most employers I have experience with don't want to deal with part time (I've asked). Being self-employed at the moment, I'm contracting to pay bills and working on my company, it's the same thing as a never ending crunch time! I certainly feel like I'm getting more done than…

What you're doing now is very very harmful. I used to do it too, and, because I didn't have specific hours, I would feel like I had to work all the time, and would feel guilty when I wasn't working.

The way I solved it was by setting actual work hours and sticking to them. Anything that came in outside work hours could wait until the next day.

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