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Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

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Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#71

Post by ThrustVectoring »

johansch wrote: post #65
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that your belief that SV developers are overpaid is because of targeted media with the goal of underpaying developers outside of Silicon Valley. If you're reading it, it's for you.

No, it's more the fact that I have been involved in hiring rounds in SV and seen the insane amounts relatively speaking crappy devs are demanding.

Your deleted comment form elsewhere in the thread:

>Well, at the moment I'm (possibly temporarily) retired, doing hobby projects. I have never felt the urge to cross any picket lines.

Not mentioning that you're former management is extremely dishonest. Derailing pro-worker discussions like this with condescension and dishonesty is extraordinarily unethical.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#72

Post by cableshaft »

dahart wrote: post #67
cableshaft wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But even if 80 weeks ends up with only a 50 hour per worker per week extra benefit, because everyone is paid salary and it doesn't cost the corporation an extra penny to make people work 80 hour weeks, there's not any incentive for them not to push for it, unless people quit, but when you're working 80 hour weeks it can be hard to find the energy to hunt for a new job (and people start feeling like they have to do it…

Agreed, there's often not enough incentive for companies to not do it, and people don't quit often enough - both were true in the cases where I've worked lots of overtime. That said, productivity during extended 80 hour week crunches may well dip below 40 and be a net drag on the company, but it probably still wouldn't matter. Game studios in particular aren't asking themselves whether it's worth it to crunch, they d…

Yeah, no disagreements there. I went through the same myself, and I was also in the game industry.

Not all jobs I had in the game industry had required crunch time, though. One had a development manager and veteran developer that didn't believe in crunch and never required it of us, and we never worked more than 50 hour weeks, and that was pretty rare.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#73

Post by johansch »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #71
johansch wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's more the fact that I have been involved in hiring rounds in SV and seen the insane amounts relatively speaking crappy devs are demanding.

Your deleted comment form elsewhere in the thread: >Well, at the moment I'm (possibly temporarily) retired, doing hobby projects. I have never felt the urge to cross any picket lines. Not mentioning that you're former management is extremely dishonest. Derailing pro-worker discussions like this with condescension and dishonesty is extraordinarily unethical.

Let me just point out that you just commented to a comment where I said I had been involved in hiring. And yes, I was in some mid-management level. But I was foremost a developer.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#74

Post by ksk »

After reading such articles I'm always left with the feeling that as software engineers we think we are in some kind of magical domain that is completely different from where the rest of worlds engineers/scientists do their work. I work with a lot of scientists, and most of them have pretty much zero sense of work life balance. They work long hours, often work on weekends, are obsessed about their work, and exhibit all the "red flags" as blog posts like these like to point out. Yet, they are extremely productive; many are world-class scientists who hold dozens of patents. And its not just me, I'd say a TON of scientific and cutting edge engineering work is done by people toiling long hours with not a semblance of a balance in their lives.

(N.B. I'm not endorsing one way or the other, but the insistence of articles like this that X requires Y often goes unchallenged)

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#75

Post by ryanwaggoner »

gingerrr wrote: post #58
ryanwaggoner wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Responding with an ad hominem attack, nice. You see your position as supporting software developers, which is reasonable. It's not reasonable to expect other software developers to refuse to raise rational points of inquiry that you've based your argument on because it may result in weakening your argument on the merits. It demonstrates that you care more about winning than about the truth. As a result, you're respon…

I'd take issue with your claim that the response by GP was the first emotional or attacking blow - that response was to GGP's "easy hipster life" claim, and the implicit claim therein that GP's call for labor solidarity was spoiled whining rather than, perhaps, a call for skilled workers in an industry to support each other's negotiation positions rather than undercut each other. > It's not reasonable to expect other…

What argument are you claiming is weakened?

I'm not saying any argument is weakened. This is analogous to what I saw:

1. Article claims X, which is good for software devs as a whole.

2. Software dev #1 says "Hmm...is X even true? Doesn't make sense for reasons A, B, and C."

3. Software dev #2 says "Hey, we're trying to negotiate here and it doesn't matter if X is true or not. You shouldn't even be pointing out that it might not be true and that we should have more evidence. You're a traitor!"

Sorry, but I have a lot more respect for software dev #1's position than software dev #2's position. I want to be associated with a community of people who are looking for the truth, even if it leads them somewhere difficult, not protecting themselves at the expense of others, truth be damned.

And I certainly don't want to be associated with a group that not only doesn't want the truth, but yells at anyone within that group who dares to challenge the consensus. Ugh.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#76

Post by ryanwaggoner »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #71
johansch wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's more the fact that I have been involved in hiring rounds in SV and seen the insane amounts relatively speaking crappy devs are demanding.

Your deleted comment form elsewhere in the thread: >Well, at the moment I'm (possibly temporarily) retired, doing hobby projects. I have never felt the urge to cross any picket lines. Not mentioning that you're former management is extremely dishonest. Derailing pro-worker discussions like this with condescension and dishonesty is extraordinarily unethical.

Oh please, that's ridiculous. "Pro-worker discussion"? "Former management?" This bizarre class warfare / labor vs. management thing you have going on is so over the top it's ridiculous. This isn't a garment sweatshop in the 1800s.

Even if the person you're responding to on some internet forum is the president of the Foundation For Keeping Software Developers from Being Overpaid, it's not unethical for them to jump into a discussion on the merits without disclosing that fact.

Why are you so afraid of having a frank discussion about this, with anyone? Slinging around terms like "extraordinarily unethical" when they're not even remotely warranted just makes it seem like you have little faith that your position makes any rational sense.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#77

Post by Swizec »

ksk wrote: post #74

After reading such articles I'm always left with the feeling that as software engineers we think we are in some kind of magical domain that is completely different from where the rest of worlds engineers/scientists do their work. I work with a lot of scientists, and most of them have pretty much zero sense of work life balance. They work long hours, often work on weekends, are obsessed about their work, and exhibit a…

> I'd say a TON of scientific and cutting edge engineering

The problem is that most of us think we're doing cutting edge engineering work, but really we're not. We're just the manual laborers of the information age. Artisans at best.

We the average joe engineers of the world, need rest and work/life balance.

That said, Feynman is famous for crediting the stepping away from work work and going back to joyous play, with making discoveries that lead to a Nobel prize. If he kept pushing himself and toiling on the busywork that Real Research was pushing on him, he'd never get anything done.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#78

Post by johansch »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #76
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your deleted comment form elsewhere in the thread: >Well, at the moment I'm (possibly temporarily) retired, doing hobby projects. I have never felt the urge to cross any picket lines. Not mentioning that you're former management is extremely dishonest. Derailing pro-worker discussions like this with condescension and dishonesty is extraordinarily unethical.

Oh please, that's ridiculous. "Pro-worker discussion"? "Former management?" This bizarre class warfare / labor vs. management thing you have going on is so over the top it's ridiculous. This isn't a garment sweatshop in the 1800s. Even if the person you're responding to on some internet forum is the president of the Foundation For Keeping Software Developers from Being Overpaid, it's not unethical for them to jump in…

> Even if the person you're responding to on some internet forum is the president of the Foundation For Keeping Software Developers from Being Overpaid ...

For the record - they wanted me to be president, but I declined. I am merely the secretary of said foundation.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#79

Post by gingerrr »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #75
gingerrr wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd take issue with your claim that the response by GP was the first emotional or attacking blow - that response was to GGP's "easy hipster life" claim, and the implicit claim therein that GP's call for labor solidarity was spoiled whining rather than, perhaps, a call for skilled workers in an industry to support each other's negotiation positions rather than undercut each other. > It's not reasonable to expect other…

What argument are you claiming is weakened? I'm not saying any argument is weakened. This is analogous to what I saw: 1. Article claims X, which is good for software devs as a whole. 2. Software dev #1 says "Hmm...is X even true? Doesn't make sense for reasons A, B, and C." 3. Software dev #2 says "Hey, we're trying to negotiate here and it doesn't matter if X is true or not. You shouldn't even be pointing out that i…

> It's not reasonable to expect other software developers to refuse to raise rational points of inquiry that you've based your argument on because it may result in weakening your argument on the merits.

> I'm not saying any argument is weakened.

Let's be consistent.

> I want to be associated with a community of people who are looking for the truth, even if it leads them somewhere difficult, not protecting themselves at the expense of others

A few things:

1. Nobody here has said "don't talk about it, period". Even Software dev #2 from your example has further commented that the criticism is aimed at the forum rather than the topic, due to its high visibility among people who often create labor policies

2. What exactly is "difficult" about a truth backed by scientific data? Also, what in aetherson's original, entirely-opinion comment resembles truth? They themselves are admitting a dearth of data on the issue, then proceed to classify the 40-hour workweek as "wishful thinking" and "probably mostly untrue" - again, without any data to support. How is that a quest for truth again?

3. Who are these "others" you say we are protecting themselves at the expense of? I'm really having difficulty understanding how a plea for labor solidarity alienates anyone except those who profit from undervaluing labor - i.e. management and moneygrubbers.

>And I certainly don't want to be associated with a group that not only doesn't want the truth, but yells at anyone within that group who dares to challenge the consensus.

A few more things:

1. Please tell me what part of saying "I'm sad" and "please don't" in ThrustVectoring's original response is yelling, again?

2. I'm not sure where you live, but where I live class consciousness and work-life balance is decidedly not the consensus. The consensus is actually very clearly aligned with aetherson's claims - that "working lots of hours is totally fine probably don't worry about it", and that as long as you're getting yours everything is fine. It doesn't even seem to be the consensus in this very thread - so it might be prudent to examine why you feel attacked as a minority when you very clearly aren't holding a minority opinion.

3. You haven't actually engaged with any of the arguments here about labor solidarity, but have instead managed to make the conversation about how mean the big scary class-conscious consensus is to the little folk who dare to question whether working more hours in a week might be a good thing. I have a hard time taking this as a serious discussion if you won't grapple with the issues on a substantive level.

Associate with whatever group you like, but it is not the responsibility of people to make you comfortable with ideas you don't like. It's your job to figure out why they make you uncomfortable and investigate that anxiety - or not, you could just do what you did here and dismiss all discussion because people were being mean and "yelling".

Thanks for the chat.

Re: Work/Life Balance Will Make You a Better Software Engineer

#80

Post by dpark »

dilemma wrote: post #70
dpark wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's anecdotally untrue. The most successful people I know work a lot of hours. I don't advocate it because I don't think it's healthy on a personal level but it's certainly an effective strategy to gain an advantage in the workplace and generally just get more stuff done.

Nobody has ever become successful by doing more of the same repetitive work. They became a success by starting or running a business, creating a new product or service, inventing something etc. Bringing that in to this discussion just muddies the water; we're discussing overtime for regular office workers.

If you're working long hours doing repetitive work and you aren't hourly, you should probably get a new job. Most people working long hours in, say, software aren't doing the same thing over and over. They're building more things, more quickly. They're managing projects more successfully. This can absolutely lead to measurable success without starting or running a business, creating a new product or service, or inventing anything meaningful.

If you can get significantly more done than your peers, competent management will notice and reward you meaningfully. The fact that you sacrifice your private life to accomplish this won't be very relevant to whether or not you deserve a huge bonus.

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