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Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#111

Post by Aaargh20318 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37
martijn_himself wrote: post #19

Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The cold-blooded convicted killer of the frontrunner in the Dutch elections in 2002 was released after 12 years, something which is unthinkable in other countries.

The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

> In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

As a Dutch guy, I agree with this in general. However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed. For example, there was a news story a while back about some petty criminal who stole some iPhones from a locker room and got caught. It was the 163rd time he got arrested. How do you deal with someone like that in a civilised manner ?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#112

Post by cooper12 »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #111
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

> In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour. As a Dutch guy, I agree with this in general. However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed. For example, there was a news story a while back about some…

Help him find a job so he shouldn't have to steal to make ends meet. If it's because of some compulsion, provide counseling.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#113

Post by saganus »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #111
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

> In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour. As a Dutch guy, I agree with this in general. However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed. For example, there was a news story a while back about some…

I'm sure there are ways to isolate him in say, a psychiatric hospital, where he can get treatment if there's any.

Of course, if your point is that certain people are beyond help, then I guess you can always find examples where this is true and then maybe you can set certain rules specific for those extreme cases.

But I think that doesn't invalidate the GP's point. In most cases helping the person recover is actually possible so it's worth giving that road a try.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#114

Post by lagadu »

charlesdm wrote: post #50
CRidge wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.

Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..

> A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..

Seems you're the one who isn't giving much value to the prisoner's life here.

If rehabilitation can't be accomplished in 14 years, it won't be accomplished in 20 or 30 either so what's the point of keeping them inside an arbitrary number of years after that?

edit: I just noticed you referred to imprisonment as punishment on another thread; that's where we differ in belief.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#115

Post by CaptSpify »

kriro wrote: post #79
ordinary wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prison sentences in the Netherlands for aren't imposed as punishment alone, not even mostly. They are primarily tools of prevention (including the prevention of recidivism). If a convicted criminal is no longer considered to be a threat to society what's the point of keeping them locked up? If longer sentences (longer than whatever they are) have not shown to reduce the crime rate through deterrent, why impose them?…

I feel like murder (or most major crimes really) is a very special case. I'd prefer a system where the default is a life sentence (a lifetime for a life feels just) but the option to release after n years if relatives/family of the victim agree to it. It's probably very impractical but would appeal most to my personal understanding of justice.

And that goes back to OP's point. Many countries don't view prison as "just", but as a means for rehabilitation or crime-prevention.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#116

Post by lagadu »

charlesdm wrote: post #107
adwn wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is. You're getting downvoted because you treat imprisonment as vengeance, as paying back a debt that is owed to the victim's family. The more reasonable approach is to use imprisonment as a tool which prevents future crimes by the perpetrator and other potential cri…

For most crimes, I definitely agree that imprisonment should be a tool to prevent further crime. In most cases, genuinely punishing someone for (stupid) mistakes (s)he has made is unproductive for society. But murder seems like a very specific situation (to me at least) where someone has crossed the line. Can one really come back from murder? Would you be comfortable spending time with someone you know who has cold-b…

> Can one really come back from murder?

We pay people to go murder other people and are fine with it. We call them soldiers and sometimes policemen too. Turns out that most people who kill someone else are able to come back more often than not well enough to be able to live in society, although PTSD is a well-known consequence for it.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#117

Post by rwmj »

thght wrote: post #110
rwmj wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual policy about the 3kg of cocaine is much more interesting and rather different from what you state. From http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/Caribb... > 7.13. Toward this end, the “100% Control” policy was implemented, in which flights landing in Schiphol originating from the Dutch Caribbean, Suriname, or Venezuela are subject to extensive searches. Rather than attempting to scare off pote…

You must be very naive to believe all that.. The actual amount of cocaine smuggled into the Netherlands is currently higher than ever before. Also, the street value for 3Kg of cocaine is far above 50.000 euro's, do you realise how poor the people of the Dutch Antilles are? Without even a police report and a free ride back it's a clear invitation. And I didn't even mention the corrupt airport security, some of them ma…

You said:

At some point they even decided not to file a police report below 3Kg of cocaine smuggling from the Dutch Antilles. Why? There were just too many doing it and the justice system couldn't handle it.

I was pointing to a World Bank study describing what actually happened, which is very different from what you said.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#118

Post by vivekd »

awjr wrote: post #22

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…

I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to change on their own part (which very few of them ever show) they will just continue to commit crimes and hurt society.

Yes many of them are addicts. However, addiction is not one of those things that someone just tries a drug and gets hooked and turns to crime. There are underlying mental issues that create an addict and those same issues tend to make them very bad people.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#119

Post by allendoerfer »

gcp wrote: post #82
allendoerfer wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not parent, but also from a neighbouring country. I think as long as the landlord is not from the private sector, and there are is no language barrier for prisoners and staff, I see no reason why not to share all kinds of resources this way within the EU. Belgium does this for Luxembourg all the time, Germany and France mostly do it symbolically (joined military forces etc.). Would like to see more of this, especiall…

and there are is no language barrier for prisoners and staff In the case of Belgium and The Netherlands, there probably is. A sizable minority of Belgians speak French, not Dutch, and due to poorer economic prospects they might also make up more than half the prison population. But I assume that for people arrested for crimes in the Dutch speaking part, being jailed by someone you can't understand is Your Own Damn Fa…

> But I assume that for people arrested for crimes in the Dutch speaking part, being jailed by someone you can't understand is Your Own Damn Fault. I mean, if they arrest Eastern Europeans then what are they going to do? Get prison wards to learn a bunch of Slav/Russian dialects?

True, did not think about that. Was more thinking about natives speaking one of the native languages.

If I would get arrested anywhere in the world, I would want my country to try everything to get me back home and be prosecuted there. If I would get arrested at home, I would want the prison staff to speak the official language of my country.

Maybe there is an opportunity here to make Dutch the official language of prisons and in consequence the official language of crime :D

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#120

Post by Dylan16807 »

vivekd wrote: post #118
awjr wrote: post #22

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…

I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to cha…

What makes you think there is a correlation between being prone to addiction and being a genuinely bad person?
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