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Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#101

Post by [deleted] »

mcv wrote: post #42
diskooo wrote: post #20

Yeah, no wonder - you rape somebody here and you have to clean the streets for a week. If you're unlucky that is. Police officers are too busy with mobile speed controls. They don't (dare) arrest anybody who's foul-mouthing them in their face. They have become laughing stock. Crime sentences (duration) are deplorable. Solved crime rates are way too low.

Low solved crimes rates are indeed a problem if that's true (it seems to be, but I'm not sure), but short sentences don't have to be a problem if they're effective at stopping inmates from returning to crime. The goal should not be to lock people up, the goal should be to prevent crime.

[deleted]

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#102

Post by thght »

What a lie this is..

In reality there is the decade old problem that the Dutch justice system cannot handle the amount of criminals. Not enough judges and money for that.

Partly because of this it has become very hard in the Netherlands to even file a police report for light to medium weight crimes committed to you. Police simply send you away if a crime is not heavy enough in their opinion. Criminals walk free on the street, and when they are caught they most often are back on the street the same day, unless it is a real serious crime of course.

At some point they even decided not to file a police report below 3Kg of cocaine smuggling from the Dutch Antilles. Why? There were just too many doing it and the justice system couldn't handle it..

The Netherlands in reality has a very high crime rate, but the government found smart ways to conceal that.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#103

Post by [deleted] »

dep_b wrote: post #56
martijn_himself wrote: post #19

Dutch national here. I'm pretty sure this is largely due to lenient prison sentences, no prison sentences at all for minor offences, and unsolved crimes. The cold-blooded convicted killer of the frontrunner in the Dutch elections in 2002 was released after 12 years, something which is unthinkable in other countries.

In Germany they solve a lot more cases without using more police force. I don't care about short sentences or helping prisoners after they went to prison, that's probably a good thing. But they need to be arrested and convicted first if they do something, not get away with it.

[deleted]

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#104

Post by bahjoite »

martijn_himself wrote: post #90
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Norway, though not Norwegian. From what I can tell it already generates a lot of debate. The sentencing seems to generate debate when someone does any sort of heinous crime. At the same time, folks seem rather proud of the system itself. And I think folks should be. I'm American, the land of petty imprisonments and punishments lasting long after prison time is served. The system here seems to produce much b…

The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most. I agree there is a balance to be struck, the American system seems to be the other extreme.

> The least proud people will probably be the families of victims- and they matter the most

Why do the families of victims matter the most? Does not every person matter equally?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#105

Post by wu-ikkyu »

usethis wrote: post #76
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

The yearly cost of a US prisoner is $47,000 [1]. I am sure this is a whole lot more than society is willing to invest in the person outside of prison. http://www.lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost

Anyone can get a basic income for life in the US, you just have to take someone else's life first.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#106

Post by pbhjpbhj »

usethis wrote: post #76
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

The yearly cost of a US prisoner is $47,000 [1]. I am sure this is a whole lot more than society is willing to invest in the person outside of prison. http://www.lao.ca.gov/PolicyAreas/CJ/6_cj_inmatecost

Is that the cost or the price? Security + healthcare amount to two-thirds - seems like that's the bit where you'd hide the profit for private enterprises?

What sort of bank do prison owning CEOs make?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#107

Post by charlesdm »

adwn wrote: post #87
charlesdm wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, I'm not saying it's not. But the other person is dead and gone forever? Imagine if someone killed your wife/child/brother/mother/etc. Does that seem like a correct punishment? I'm not talking about accidents (e.g. a car crash), but premeditated murder? I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is.

> I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is. You're getting downvoted because you treat imprisonment as vengeance, as paying back a debt that is owed to the victim's family. The more reasonable approach is to use imprisonment as a tool which prevents future crimes by the perpetrator and other potential cri…

For most crimes, I definitely agree that imprisonment should be a tool to prevent further crime. In most cases, genuinely punishing someone for (stupid) mistakes (s)he has made is unproductive for society. But murder seems like a very specific situation (to me at least) where someone has crossed the line. Can one really come back from murder?

Would you be comfortable spending time with someone you know who has cold-bloodedly killed another human being? I know I wouldn't. And I'm generally a person who is pretty open about most things.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#108

Post by charlesdm »

deadbunny wrote: post #88
charlesdm wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, I'm not saying it's not. But the other person is dead and gone forever? Imagine if someone killed your wife/child/brother/mother/etc. Does that seem like a correct punishment? I'm not talking about accidents (e.g. a car crash), but premeditated murder? I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is.

> Does that seem like a correct punishment? Prison isn't meant as a punishment in Norway, it is for rehabilitation of the person. People would rather they helped even the worst of people become members of society than let them rot in a cell for "punishment". Did being sent to the naughty step when you were a kid solve your behavior or was it becoming a better person that solved it?

> Did being sent to the naughty step when you were a kid solve your behavior or was it becoming a better person that solved it?

You can't really compare that though. In 99% of the cases, I agree with what you say and with that line of thought. I just don't when it comes to murder. To me, that seems like the worst of all possible crimes.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#109

Post by rwmj »

thght wrote: post #102

What a lie this is.. In reality there is the decade old problem that the Dutch justice system cannot handle the amount of criminals. Not enough judges and money for that. Partly because of this it has become very hard in the Netherlands to even file a police report for light to medium weight crimes committed to you. Police simply send you away if a crime is not heavy enough in their opinion. Criminals walk free on th…

The actual policy about the 3kg of cocaine is much more interesting and rather different from what you state. From http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/Caribb...

> 7.13. Toward this end, the “100% Control” policy was implemented, in which flights landing in Schiphol originating from the Dutch Caribbean, Suriname, or Venezuela are subject to extensive searches. Rather than attempting to scare off potential smugglers with the threat of incarceration, the Dutch approach was based on increasing the rate of interdiction to the point that smuggling becomes unprofitable. In other words, the focus was on the drugs, rather than the couriers, and was based on incapacitation, rather than traditional deterrence. Europol described the mechanics of the policy in this way:

> > Crews, passengers, their luggage, the cargo and the planes are systematically searched. Couriers with amounts of less than 3 kg of cocaine are not detained, unless they are arrested for the second time or another criminal offense is involved. Instead, the drugs are confiscated and the smugglers are sent back. Couriers who have been identified are registered on a blacklist, which is provided to KLM, Dutch Caribbean Airlines and Suriname Airways.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#110

Post by thght »

rwmj wrote: post #109
thght wrote: post #102

What a lie this is.. In reality there is the decade old problem that the Dutch justice system cannot handle the amount of criminals. Not enough judges and money for that. Partly because of this it has become very hard in the Netherlands to even file a police report for light to medium weight crimes committed to you. Police simply send you away if a crime is not heavy enough in their opinion. Criminals walk free on th…

The actual policy about the 3kg of cocaine is much more interesting and rather different from what you state. From http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTHAITI/Resources/Caribb... > 7.13. Toward this end, the “100% Control” policy was implemented, in which flights landing in Schiphol originating from the Dutch Caribbean, Suriname, or Venezuela are subject to extensive searches. Rather than attempting to scare off pote…

You must be very naive to believe all that.. The actual amount of cocaine smuggled into the Netherlands is currently higher than ever before.

Also, the street value for 3Kg of cocaine is far above 50.000 euro's, do you realise how poor the people of the Dutch Antilles are? Without even a police report and a free ride back it's a clear invitation. And I didn't even mention the corrupt airport security, some of them make a sweet income out of this. It is definitely not "100% control", at all..

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