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Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#61

Post by zyx321 »

waterflame wrote: post #21

Apparently the Dutch are not as smart as the Americans. It's simple: 1- Legalize Guns so people can shoot each other over anything 2- Privatize Prisons so that greedy CEOs can take over the "business" 3- Create laws that can criminalize you for any stupid thing you do, procedures that make everyone frustrated, and an economy that keeps you bankrupt most of the time

All those measures will take a long time to take effect. You can't expect culture to change over night.

Luckily if you want results NOW, all you gotta do is outlaw marijuana. Nothing fills prisons like a War on Drugs.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#62

Post by gpvos »

Waterluvian wrote: post #3

Maybe some prisons can fundamentally change to becoming some sort of YMCA-like environment. I imagine a lot of the prisoners are non violent. If so, I wonder if you could co-mingle those who live at the "prison" with those who go for the social activities and whatnot.

They are doing something like that in Denmark. Seems to work well from what I've heard.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#63

Post by taneq »

waterflame wrote: post #21

Apparently the Dutch are not as smart as the Americans. It's simple: 1- Legalize Guns so people can shoot each other over anything 2- Privatize Prisons so that greedy CEOs can take over the "business" 3- Create laws that can criminalize you for any stupid thing you do, procedures that make everyone frustrated, and an economy that keeps you bankrupt most of the time

You don't really need point 3. It's implicit in point 2, because private prisons will allocate funds to lobbyists in pursuit of regulatory capture, resulting in 3.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#64

Post by michaelt »

charlesdm wrote: post #50
CRidge wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't sound unthinkable in other countries. I'm from Norway, where the maximum prison sentence is 21 years, with a third of that often being deducted for good behavior, leaving 14 years.

Should a killer get released after 14 years though, after "good behavior"? If we're talking about premeditated murder, you can be pretty sure you're dealing with an individual who doesn't have good behavior. Second, 14 (or 21) years for murder, really? A life isn't worth a lot anymore these days..

To me, going in at age 20 and coming out at age 34-41 seems like a pretty big chunk of your life gone?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#65

Post by ordinary »

dep_b wrote: post #11

It's not a lack of crime that causes it but a lack of solved crimes. Violent crimes for example, if a violent crime gets reported in Germany they solve the crime in 80% of the cases but in Holland just 40%. People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups. And…

People organise neighbourhood watch WhatsApp groups to prevent crime instead of relying on the police to fix things. Within ten years these groups will probably grow into armed and organised right-wing groups.

I have seen the signs for these WhatsApp groups in my own neighbourhood, but I think you're mischaracterizing them. These groups (and the signs that come with them) have existed for decades: "Attentie, buurtpreventie". They're just embracing modern technology. If their formation inevitably lead to armed militias roaming the streets, then we would've seen them by now.

Groups like these crossing the line would be a result of other changes in Dutch society.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#68

Post by allendoerfer »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #34
awjr wrote: post #22

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…

It's a mix of having a lot of prisons, short sentences and low crime rates. A lot of people are advocating for more police and longer sentences, but I don't see why. If you look at the numbers, the system is working. The Police manpower is on par with the UK: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/... The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurost…

> The amount of prisoners / 100.000 inhabitants is on par with Germany: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/....

Whose police and security forces are also underfunded. Apart from the usual "hey, new idea: let's increase pensions!" you need to do to win in an ageing country, this is the big topic in the upcoming election.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#69

Post by akvadrako »

dep_b wrote: post #35
akvadrako wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would down vote you if I could, because you are being very disingenuous. I have never lived anywhere as safe as Holland, backed up both by statistics and the general atmosphere. Just to be clear, what percentage of neighbourhood's have WhatApp patrols? I bet it's under 0.1%. If you feel unsafe in Holland you should be terrified to live in the US: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Netherlands...

Maybe it would be a good moment to reflect on yourself and analyse why the things I say make you angry. It's all backed up by data and facts. If you would take time to read the source (sorry if you can't read Dutch: the registered number of groups was 661, which is 40% of all municipalities) you wouldn't respond like that. The NRC is a very reliable (but a bit progressive liberal) newspaper. I don't care about the US…

It doesn't make me angry, but you are giving people a bad impression.

So you are not comparing The Netherlands to other countries but instead to it's past self? That isn't clear at all from your post.

And you have evidence that the crime rate is increasing?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#70

Post by allendoerfer »

johnchristopher wrote: post #43
awjr wrote: post #22

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…

I take it you are from the Netherlands or living there. I have been in Belgium for some years now. What's your position on Belgium outsourcing and renting cells in the Netherlands ?

Not parent, but also from a neighbouring country. I think as long as the landlord is not from the private sector, and there are is no language barrier for prisoners and staff, I see no reason why not to share all kinds of resources this way within the EU.

Belgium does this for Luxembourg all the time, Germany and France mostly do it symbolically (joined military forces etc.). Would like to see more of this, especially when there are monetary benefits for both sides.

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