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The smug style in American liberalism

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Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#271
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the "$republican is literally hitler", "$republican is racist", etc, is more hysterical this time around. I attribute that to Trump being blatantly on the wrong side of the culture war [1]. I'm just saying that "XXX republican is racist" has lost it's meaning due to overuse. The boy has cried "hitler" about Bush, Romney, etc, and the villagers will no longer come running. [1] I recommend reading Moldbug'…

I think this is wrong in two respects. First, the statement has not lost its meaning but only its effect. Second, the claim that Bush and Romney were racists was not a major strand of political discourse. People talked about Republican policies rooted in racism, but that is a very different thing from having a presidential candidate who is himself, on a personal level, a racist.

Bill Maher is no genius, but even before the election he had already identified this lack of credibility, the umpteenth time some random Republican is deemed beyond the pale:

http://www.salon.com/2016/11/07/bill-maher-liberals-cried-wo...

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#272
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is wrong in two respects. First, the statement has not lost its meaning but only its effect. Second, the claim that Bush and Romney were racists was not a major strand of political discourse. People talked about Republican policies rooted in racism, but that is a very different thing from having a presidential candidate who is himself, on a personal level, a racist.

Bill Maher is no genius, but even before the election he had already identified this lack of credibility, the umpteenth time some random Republican is deemed beyond the pale: http://www.salon.com/2016/11/07/bill-maher-liberals-cried-wo...

There are always people on each side making outrageous allegations about each candidate. The question of whether Romney was a racist was not a major issue in the previous campaign.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a feedback loop that started because of government intervention in the free market and it continues simply because of government intervention in the free market. There are many examples of this, such as your broadband and mobile phone markets, and university tuition loans.

Well, hang on now, wouldn't you agree that the free market has sometimes left us stuck with cartels and monopolies? (In the US, look at the railroads and telephone network.) Sometimes you need regulations to break out of those traps.

The telephone network hasn't had anything to do with a free market since 1934 at the latest. The Justice Department chose a monopolist winner in 1913.

The USA freight rail system exhibited some monopoly through the 1880s, but since has been quite regulated. Perhaps the current level of regulation may not be ideal, but since the USA freight rail system is the best in the world it would seem foolish to tamper with it.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#274
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears that Trump won because of... You missed the point I was making - I was speculating why electoral predictions were wrong, not speculating why Trump won. I rather hope liberals don't develop empathy for the wealthy Americans who handed the election to Trump. Empathy is truly a destructive force in the world. We feel far more empathy for those close to us, those who look like us, those who are blessed with at…

The false speculations -- shared by both liberals and conservative, BTW -- were the result of the same blindness of the elites that has led to the outcome. If you've read those who weren't blind, like Thomas Frank,they saw it coming (although I think even Frank thought that the blind establishment would prevail in this cycle). I can't tell if you're joking in the rest of your comment or not, but as to qualities you v…

Yes, when I choose to date a woman (in part because of her beauty), I consider her my social equal. I also believe beauty gains a woman status and influence. Do you disagree with these two claims?

(In fact, I consider beauty to be one of the most underappreciated virtues in the modern world. As a weird tangent, one of the major things I prefer about NYC to Bombay is how NYC weights beauty over wealth.)

I'm beginning to think that what you call "scientific racism" is what I'd simply call "science" applied to humans. Do you believe it differs? If so, how?

I suspect that question will be dodged. I suspect you are using the term "scientific racism" rather than "science" in order to create equivalence between scientists and "hate groups", and imply I feel hatred towards some group. That's definitely an implication I object to.

So if you want to follow up with a question of whether or not you're a Jewish supremacist, you can spare it. I've read it all in 100+-year-old books.

As I suspected, all possible viewpoints I might hold result in you believing I'm a white supremacist.

Have fun with the highbrow dismissal and vague hints that some uncited authority supports your views.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's not that he didn't, but he couldn't, with the most obstructive Congress in modern history Ironically, some of that might have been his own doing, though. The healthcare reform was passed essentially without republican support; I think that's a very rare example of major [healthcare] legislation that was not passed with bi-partisan support. Not doing more to bring R's on board likely burned lots of poli…

The GOP congress decided to bring Obama down from the start, and never gave an inch. He tried valiantly to collaborate and compromise but the GOP didn’t have the political capacity to work with Obama for fear of being challenged in primaries from the right. You’re right that the ACA ended up being a political disaster for the Democrats though. The ACA was basically the same as “RomneyCare” in MA, and was a style of h…

> The ACA was basically the same as “RomneyCare” in MA, and was a style of healthcare reform supported by mainstream center-right Republicans

Romneycare never really had widespread support of Republicans at the national level. Or, really, the support of Republicans in general. It was passed by a governor in a state where almost every single elected state legislator is a Democrat, so it's hardly a measure of what to expect Republicans to support when the population they represent is more moderate, conservative, or Republican-affiliated.

Using Romney's actions as governor of MA as a yardstick is a really skewed perspective to try and apply to national politics. Massachusetts has a history of electing Republican governors as a way of placing a "check" on the legislature. Currently, Massachusetts has a Republican governor - but Baker would likely have run under the Democratic party if we were talking about Montana or Kansas instead of Massachusetts.

> and some center-left Democrats (most Democrats wanted a single payer plan, or at least a public option, but took what they could get because the healthcare system was/is at a breaking point)

It was never the case that "most" Democrats wanted a single-payer plan. The public option was more popular within the Democratic party, but even then was very controversial, and didn't have strong enough support from the Democrats.

There was, incidentally, a proposal that did have bipartisan support (the Wyden-Bennett bill), but it fell short of 60 votes.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#276
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trumps treatment of women in the past makes my skin crawl, as an individual I think his behavior on that count is despicable. But if I were given the option of Hillary or Trump I'd vote Trump. I might be wrong but I've not heard him say anything that is racist. No doubt there are some that are supporting him because they're racist, that doesn't mean all are. On that note I would love someone to prove me wrong and sho…

> "There are issue like abortion, that to me are like the holocaust. I know most don't agree with me on that, and I can understand that they don't see a fetus as a life, I get it. But imagine for a second that you were firmly convinced that a fetus was as much a life as a new born." Okay, so here I am - lifelong progressive Democrat. And I'll open up to this discussion. So, I'm believing that at the moment of concept…

"Life of the mother" is very different from "it's my body", though. If I believe that life begins at conception, I can perhaps bend to a "life of the mother" exception. "It's my body"? But it's not just your body - there's another life involved as well - so you can't just do what you want with your body.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... yes, "promises" are how people defend their vote, and now we're going to get a front-row seat to see what happens to "promises" when the bullshit artist, Trump, is in charge.

Yeah, see you really need to listen to yourself? That article says it all. Now he's a bullshit artist because he can't possibly be competent since he's ostensibly a conservative. It's a fallacy.

No, he's a bullshit artist because he has made promises which he is CLEARLY not going to be able to keep like building a wall between Mexico and USA and getting Mexico to pay for it. I could go on and on, but that's a good, concrete example of a "promise" that will go unfulfilled.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#278

"The knowing know that police reform, that abortion rights, that labor unions are important, but go no further: What is important, after all, is to signal that you know these things." This is an amazing observation. The 'smug style' doesn't actually contribute to the amelioration of these issues. Even for some things the lack of individual commitment betrays unseriousness, e.g. abortion rights - most people protestin…

As someone who just recently "got" the whole follow what you preach thing, I believe there is a real gap in communicating how you follow through on high-horse ideals in a practical way.

It took me having a comfortable enough income to donate to political parties before it really clicked I could do a whole lot more.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#279
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The false speculations -- shared by both liberals and conservative, BTW -- were the result of the same blindness of the elites that has led to the outcome. If you've read those who weren't blind, like Thomas Frank,they saw it coming (although I think even Frank thought that the blind establishment would prevail in this cycle). I can't tell if you're joking in the rest of your comment or not, but as to qualities you v…

Yes, when I choose to date a woman (in part because of her beauty), I consider her my social equal. I also believe beauty gains a woman status and influence. Do you disagree with these two claims? (In fact, I consider beauty to be one of the most underappreciated virtues in the modern world. As a weird tangent, one of the major things I prefer about NYC to Bombay is how NYC weights beauty over wealth.) I'm beginning…

> when I choose to date a woman (in part because of her beauty), I consider her my social equal. I also believe beauty gains a woman status and influence. Do you disagree with these two claims?

I have no idea whether you consider the women you date to be your social equal or not -- it is none of my business -- but I don't think it is necessarily the case that every man (or woman) considers their romantic partners their social equal. As to the other claim, I wholeheartedly disagree. There is no question that beauty is a source of power. But you'd need to be blind to think that it is a greater source of power in our society than other qualities. Note, also, how beautiful women are often brought down (just a pretty face etc.), whereas powerful men are not discussed in the same way (nah, he's just an ugly billionaire).

> I'm beginning to think that what you call "scientific racism" is what I'd simply call "science" applied to humans. Do you believe it differs? If so, how?

What "I call" scientific racism is what is known by historians as scientific racism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism. The difference (aside from question of whether actual science is involved or not) is the following:

Just to be sure, first of all let me say that I do not believe (based on the evidence at hand) that scientific-racist claims have any merit whatsoever, and based on the history I studied, I am quite certain that even if there were some truth to them, the effect size is negligible compared to social effects. But, for the sake of argument (although it makes me sick to my stomach), let’s suppose that scientific-racism’s claims are absolutely true. There is a crucial distinction to be made between the veracity of a claim and the importance of discussing it.

There’s a parable (by Kierkegaard, I think) about a man who escapes from an insane asylum and, determined not to be sent back, decides to appear sane by only saying true statements. To everyone he meets, he says, "The earth is round. The earth is round," which, naturally, gets him sent back. Or consider Trump’s statement about Carly Fiorina’s looks. I think most people would agree that the important question about the event is not whether Fiorina is actually ugly or not, but why Trump saw the need to make that statement, regardless of its empirical truth. Often, finding the need to say something tells more about the speaker than about the object of the statement. In Trump’s case, it was an expression of how he thinks women should be valued.

Given the treatment of, say, blacks in the US, the question of whether and by how much blacks are innately stupider than whites is completely uninteresting to me. What is interesting to me is why some people think the question of their innate abilities is so important to merit discussion and/or investigation at this point in time. After all, there is much to be done to treat people more fairly and with more dignity even before getting to the question of their innate worth. Once all people are treated with the dignity they deserve, we can try addressing every person's individual abilities. We've invented technological solutions to short-sightedness; maybe we can find technological solutions to stupidity, too.

So to answer your question: scientific racism often has motivations that are completely different from those behind most science.

Expecting your next question, let me say that the reason racism and sexism are studied collectively yet innate abilities should be studied at the individual level -- putting aside the obvious answer of respective effect size and variability -- is this: it has been found as conclusively as anything in social science, that many social forces are best studied collectively, just as gas molecules are; that's just how they work.

> in you believing I'm a white supremacist.

I honestly don't understand this. I don't believe you're a white supremacist; I don't know you personally at all! You just keep claiming to be a white supremacist, maybe not using those exact words, but by repeating textbook scientific racism claims. I could insist not to be a billionaire, only to have a billion dollars in my bank account, and to talk about "your definition of billionaire". Scientific racism has a pretty well accepted definition, and your well publicized views coincide with it well.

> highbrow dismissal and vague hints that some uncited authority supports your views.

What views? That you're repeating classic scientific racism claims? The Wikipedia page has dozens of relevant references.

Also, I don't understand your point about "highbrow dismissal". If I were to tell you "just use logic! Quantum mechanics can't possibly be true!" would your educated response be considered highbrow dismissal?

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#280
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I pointed out above, the status quo is actually pretty good. For you. And me. But we are not the majority. The majority does not benefit from automation, globalisation etc. as much as you and me. And it doesn't matter if in absolute terms we are all better of(for which citation would be needed, specifically for the lowest income bracket), it matters that the benefits of this new age are not spread around to thos…

"I love the poorly educated." This wasn't about the economy at all which is pretty good. This was a demagogue preying on gullibility. Y'all just elected him, citation unnecessary.

You say something that doesn't even answer wojcech's point, then say "citation unnecessary"? Not very convincing.

(The point, the request for citation, was the claim that the economy is doing well for the bottom 20%. A quote from Trump does not address that question whatsoever.)

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