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The smug style in American liberalism

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Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#81

Post by johndoez »

gcp wrote: post #79
johndoez wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precisely. Political Correctness is now starting to work against the Left.

Many democracies in Europe have or have had extreme right nationalists/fascists in power and much of the same trajectory happened. Uttering that there might be problems with immigration policies was a complete taboo as the extreme right made extremely strict (and thus different) policies there a major point of their discourse. But what happens when you don't discuss a subject that the voters consider (right or not -…

Indeed. Here is the great truth - for most people, race matters, and always will. They want to live with people of the same ethnicity, with the same history, in the same territory. The breakup of Yugoslavia suggested ethno-nationalism was on the rise, but the elites continued to push (if not intensified) mass immigration in the West. This has created the seedbed for the new "anti-politics". It is in its first phase, and I expect it to last for around 30 years.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#82

Post by Lazare »

I recall reading the post when it was published, and thought it was very powerful, although I had some quibbles with the details and the tone. I mean, the author was broadly right, sure, but...

Also interesting to recall: The amount of disagreements and personal insults the author got for the piece.

And another: Rensin was let go from Vox shortly after writing the piece for tweeting "If Trump comes to your town, start a riot."

In any case, in retrospect...he nailed it.

(Disclaimer: Supported Clinton, although with major qualms.)

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#83

Post by gcp »

gozur88 wrote: post #73
slowmotiony wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That... sounds like a better deal to me?

That's what I was thinking. As long as I don't get more than six MRIs a year I come out ahead.

The problem with this reasoning (and by extension, any system where there's a possibility to opt out of healthcare) is that if you have a serious ailment that you can't afford to treat, we have to let you die.

But I believe even in the USA you will get (emergency) treatment and the bills racked up, right?

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#84

Post by dnautics »

"The knowing know that police reform, that abortion rights, that labor unions are important, but go no further: What is important, after all, is to signal that you know these things."

This is an amazing observation. The 'smug style' doesn't actually contribute to the amelioration of these issues. Even for some things the lack of individual commitment betrays unseriousness, e.g. abortion rights - most people protesting federal defunding of PP would NEVER imagine to actually cut a check themselves, whereas there are principled libertarians, for example, who would be for ending funding PP using other people's money while donating to the organization themselves. Ms. Clinton's talks in front of Black Lives Matter audiences was notably bereft of any reference to police accountability (which is the one truly important thing) but instead offers feel-good solutions like broadly 'ending racism', 'sensitivity training', 'community policing'.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#85

Post by binarysolo »

wojcech wrote: post #80
CalChris wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I pointed out above, the status quo is actually pretty good. And yes, I'm aware of Brexit at all. I think that Trump learned more about Brexit than we learned about Remain, Brexit being the politics of complaint.

> As I pointed out above, the status quo is actually pretty good. For you. And me. But we are not the majority. The majority does not benefit from automation, globalisation etc. as much as you and me. And it doesn't matter if in absolute terms we are all better of(for which citation would be needed, specifically for the lowest income bracket), it matters that the benefits of this new age are not spread around to thos…

There's a strong disconnect amongst the beneficiaries of globalization that the status quo is overall good -- it's probably TERRIBLE for a quarter of the people, treading water for half, and beneficial to the remainder who are in positions that leverage cultural and technological progress.

A lot of communities are absolutely gutted by rural flight and the shift of power to urban tech centers, and they're really hurting. This is a consistent theme across many Westernized nations.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#86

Post by gozur88 »

gcp wrote: post #83
gozur88 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what I was thinking. As long as I don't get more than six MRIs a year I come out ahead.

The problem with this reasoning (and by extension, any system where there's a possibility to opt out of healthcare) is that if you have a serious ailment that you can't afford to treat, we have to let you die. But I believe even in the USA you will get (emergency) treatment and the bills racked up, right?

Yeah, that's true.

The problem now is health care plans are so expensive the right thing to do from a green-eyeshades perspective is to pay the fine for not having a plan and go to the ER if you have a problem.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#88

Post by maxerickson »

xupybd wrote: post #66
ant6n wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, I don't buy it. I don't believe it. I listen to how Trump talks, how Trump supporters talk, all the racism, the sexism, the xenophobia, it's just not right. There's no excuse. It's the beginning of fascism. Btw, I'm German. (I've lived in North America for more than ten years)

Trumps treatment of women in the past makes my skin crawl, as an individual I think his behavior on that count is despicable. But if I were given the option of Hillary or Trump I'd vote Trump. I might be wrong but I've not heard him say anything that is racist. No doubt there are some that are supporting him because they're racist, that doesn't mean all are. On that note I would love someone to prove me wrong and sho…

The irony to me about immigration violations is that a major factor in reducing them has been...NAFTA.

There is even currently a net migration of Mexicans back to Mexico.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/19/more-mexicans-leaving-...

I'm not sure I count as part of the left, but as an atheist, I have no trouble understanding a fetus was as much a life as a new born as an honest and principled position. On the other hand, I'm not sure how you come to a political compromise with people that disagree with it (how do they reach out?).

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#89

Post by gadders »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #35

This is definitely the preference falsification election. Those who know me on HN know that I'm an outspoken proponent of unorthodox ideas. I'm regularly shouted down, called racist/evil/etc, downmodded and flagged on HN. I also get a steady stream of private emails: "I wouldn't say this publicly cause of the bullies, but that .gov link with all the data does seem to support you. I think you might be right, I need to…

A similar thing happened with Brexit, and the last UK General Election. Right-leaning voters just can't be bothered to identify themselves and get involved in debates about it. They just vote.

Re: The smug style in American liberalism

#90

Post by rorykoehler »

ant6n wrote: post #55
yummyfajitas wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are other reasons to support Trump. Being an unorthodox person who they perceived as nonjudgemental, quite a few people have confided in me that they like him. Only one of these people was white, several were female, and none are particularly racist. Reasons I've been told include: - A "fuck you" to the establishment and orthodoxy. - A belief that Hillary is corrupt. - Entertainment value. One Trump voter I kno…

I've done a fair bit of arguing with the folks here on HN, it's interesting because it doesn't match the echo chamber I have on twitter or facebook. There seem to be a lot of Trump supporter here, which I find very surprising. This idea keeps coming up again and again that using the word 'racist' in the context of the Trump campaign is essentially name-calling, an insult. The problem is, racism is a big, big, big iss…

I'm not a Trump supporter... far from it however looking at my HRC social media bubble it's clear that practically 95% of my social circle are way off base when it comes to their analysis of why Trump won, which is precisely why he did win. If you don't understand your 'enemy' you cannot organise against him... or in this case liberals are so out of touch of what life is like in less fortunate areas of the country that they cannot begin to communicate with the people that live there on a level playing field. We needed a more extreme version of Bernie but instead we got offered the status quo. Racism, which has always been a big problem, has very little to do with this election and the sooner we accept that the better for everyone. This is economic.
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