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Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

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Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#221
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been playing this game from the start. I remember the original announcement blog post talking about how he figured out the formula through trial and error. We can eat small amounts of poison and never notice that it's damaged our bodies, for example. Who knows what the long term effects are.

You can also eat small amounts of poison and become immune. Everything will be damage in large quantities. And some common things probably do long term damage (e.g. any amount of charring on meat) but we never question them.

That may work with (fictional) iocane powder in The Princess Bride, but almost all real poisons don't work that way. For example, you aren't going to become immune to the amatoxins in death cap mushrooms by having a nibble everyone once in a while.

Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#222
Inexcusable.

The only reason Soylent have gotten away with it for so long is that the FDA rules for this category of product haven't been written yet.

A product shouldn't make people sick when used as intended. So if a product is intended to be consumed as 100% of your diet, it MUST:

- contain all known macro- and micro-nutrients necessary for human health

- contain nothing that makes you sick when you eat it all the time

Soylent failed on both counts:

- Early formulations lacked selenium. Beta testers duly developed symptoms of selenium deficiency.

- The latest formulation contained algae. Customers duly got sick from consuming more of this kind of algae than humans have ever consumed before.

The first mistake might be excused as a beginner's error and a learning experience. But they didn't learn. Luckily, Soylent lives in the land of class action lawsuits. The lawyers are gonna shut these jokers down.

Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#223
post #66

Where is the FDA in all of this? I would hope that after the widespread issues with the product, they would have stepped in and blocked shipment until safety studies have been done that comply with regulations.

They're busy regulating life saving drugs. If we got rid of the FDA all together, there would be more competition for products like this, and companies would need to win the trust of consumers by providing real health study information.

Please read about "The Jungle". (Wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jungle).

Relying on companies to compete on the basis of maximizing customer health is... short-sighted at best.

Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#224
post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of companies say stuff like that. If what you mean to say is "We want to move fast and break things, and we consider this a beta product not ready for the wide market, so we're applying looser controls than most food companies, and this stuff might make you stick," then you need to say that. You can't reasonably expect people to intuit that from generic marketing talk† about exploring frontiers. † For example, m…

The Mexican restaurant down the street doesn't advertise that they buy the cheapest chicken in town and therefore may give you food poisoning. They expect you to get that point based on the price. Advertisers are simply not going to do what many of these HN comments are demanding. This isn't a tech app, this isn't a linux distro. This is a general consumer facing product. They don't have an abnormal rate of sickness…

> This isn't a tech app, this isn't a linux distro. This is a general consumer facing product.

I thought you said it was clearly an experimental beta. They can't have it both ways, where they get a pass for any problems they encounter because it's experimental and not fully beta-tested (and thus not yet ready for general consumption) and they get a pass on vague marketing because it's a general consumer-facing product (which means it's considered "ready" for the general consumer).

> They're using experimental products, which they are up-front about

No, they aren't. That is the entire point I was making in the comment you're replying to. Their marketing doesn't claim to be any more "experimental" than the countless other brands that call themselves innovative.

I don't mean to harp on Soylent, because I mean, I'm not sure how many people were aware that this allergy even existed. Stuff like this happens even to much larger companies. But I think it's reasonable to hold them to the same standards as any other company producing food for the general market, not treat them as though they're in some hazy "public beta food" state that grants carte blanche.

Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#225
post #183
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You (and Soylent) have absolutely no idea whether that's true. Which is the problem.

How might they acquire that knowledge, other than through the process they seem to currently be executing?

> How might they acquire that knowledge, other than through the process they seem to currently be executing?

Well, a lot of folks would like to see a bit more care paid attention to the entire process. This isn't the first time Soylent has shipped potentially dangerous product.

Not long ago, they shipped their new bottled formula to folks, and it arrived covered in mold! Their snack bars have made people violently ill, and now their powder too. Every product Soylent makes, is making or has made people ill.

Soylent has practically zero quality control/testing, and doesn't have on-site staff dedicated to ensuring their product is safe. They send out a few carefully selected samples to an external lab, but that's far from continuous testing of the product rolling off the line.

Some might attribute it to the "silicon valley" mindset Soylent has. "We'll disrupt the food industry - but we won't bother to learn what it takes to produce uniformly clean and safe product".

There's good reasons the "big guys" spend so much on lab personnel and equipment. If people all around the world started getting sick from Coca-Cola, it wouldn't be good - to say the least.

Edit - Adding sources:

[1] http://motherboard.vice.com/read/soylent-20-shipments-were-d...

[2] http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/10/reports-of-violent-vo...

[3] http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-soylent-...

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12812730

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8NCigh54jg&feature=youtu.be...

Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#226

Oh boy, another Soylent discussion. Here is what all the off topic discussion will be: Person1) "What is so hard to understand sheeple?! Soylent isn't for all your meals, just ones that you are too busy to eat. Also, it has all the vitamins you need not like all those thousand other bars/drinks!?" Person2) "I'd rather move to the bottom of the ocean than buy Soylent. Why would you ever skip a meal?! Capitalism is the…

You could also say some people like Trump and other people like Clinton, and it's just an opinion. However, one opinion is highly correlated with being more educated. I suspect that the same is true here. The population at large has a very poor level of education about food, and Soylent seeks to exploit that very large business opportunity. I would prefer to see more people with an understanding of healthy eating and…

> The population at large has a very poor level of education about food, and Soylent seeks to exploit that very large business opportunity.

Conceptually, the advantages of a product such as Soylent includes long shelf-life, reducing the frequency and time needed to shop food, offering healthy fast-food meals, having a lower carbon footprint and being more sustainable than regular food, reducing the time spent preparing food, being cheaper than other sources of ready-made food (with basis in my own budget). These are not trivial advantages if fully realized, and it seems reductive to reduce the advantages of Soylent to just being a product for people poorly educated about food.

> I would prefer to see more people with an understanding of healthy eating and cooking.

I believe most people who eat healthy basically just follow hand-wavy norms and guidelines about what is considered healthy, e.g. include fish and vegetables in your diet (simplified). Once someone actually tries to engineer a complete diet such as Soylent it becomes apparent how hard it is to guarantee rich completeness. However, in the long run I believe the engineering approach, based on scientific input, is more likely to result in a proper diet. Especially when in the long run a "Soylent version X" can be based on a closed loop with personal body telemetry and customized food mixes based on these sensor readings.

Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#227
post #225
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How might they acquire that knowledge, other than through the process they seem to currently be executing?

> How might they acquire that knowledge, other than through the process they seem to currently be executing? Well, a lot of folks would like to see a bit more care paid attention to the entire process. This isn't the first time Soylent has shipped potentially dangerous product. Not long ago, they shipped their new bottled formula to folks, and it arrived covered in mold! Their snack bars have made people violently il…

Do you have sources? I was of the opinion that all of this stuff is heavily regulated by the FDA. What makes you think Soylent really criminally negligent, or at least any more so than any other food manufacturer?

FWIW, the ingredient in question is "generally recognized as safe" by the FDA: http://investors.terravia.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=89...

Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#228

Inexcusable. The only reason Soylent have gotten away with it for so long is that the FDA rules for this category of product haven't been written yet. A product shouldn't make people sick when used as intended. So if a product is intended to be consumed as 100% of your diet, it MUST: - contain all known macro- and micro-nutrients necessary for human health - contain nothing that makes you sick when you eat it all the…

Good lord. The percentage of people who 'got sick' by Soylent was less 0.1% of all consumers. If we went into panic-mode for that kind of result for every product, we wouldn't have any products. The variation in humans is too great to test for everything.

"The Lawyers" aren't going to shut anyone down because no one is suing, and if they tried I doubt any judge would allow a class-action lawsuit for a few tummyaches.

Soylent lists the ingredients on the box. That the consumers were unaware of their sensitivity to algae is not evidence of misconduct on the part of Soylent.

Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#229

Inexcusable. The only reason Soylent have gotten away with it for so long is that the FDA rules for this category of product haven't been written yet. A product shouldn't make people sick when used as intended. So if a product is intended to be consumed as 100% of your diet, it MUST: - contain all known macro- and micro-nutrients necessary for human health - contain nothing that makes you sick when you eat it all the…

>. So if a product is intended to be consumed as 100% of your diet

Soylent isn't marketed as being intended to replace every meal anymore. I know some of their earlier press focused on the founder replacing all of his food with Soylent, but they've transitioned from that approach more recently.

Re: Soylent Thinks It Found What Was Making People Sick: Algae

#230
post #69
post #4

Sounds like they have a bug in their "food stack" and this modification is like printf debugging - if no one gets sick then it was the algae, otherwise they will need to continue poking around to figure out what's wrong. What a silly game to play when people's health is at stake.

You can say the same thing about the food in any restaurant. I really don't understand the hate that's directed towards this product. Nobody was seriously injured, it was a relatively small number of people that got sick. Soylent is trying to do something more ambitious than other packaged food manufacturers. It's not unreasonable to expect there to be some small hiccups. If you can't tolerate that, then don't buy it…

Food poisoning is bad food prep techniques.Restaurants generally provide food with ingredients within an expected band, prepared in an expected way.

Soylent using experimental ingredients in their products and finding out that they are irritating some users is not the same thing.

If a restaurant told me they used all sorts of "new" industrial ingredients than I would likely balk. I would not want to be in on that beta program.

Especially since, you know, it's likely they are pursuing new ingredients all the time to improve their margins, not the food quality, taste or nutrition.

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