Be careful about what you dislike • Hacker News Board

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#141

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 9:43 PM UTC

TheBobinator wrote: post #117

twic wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people I look for are those that take strong stands but are willing and able to adjust and even quickly reverse those stances. Sometimes called "strong opinions, weakly held". I find this principle to be incoherent - if you understand something well enough to have a strong opinion, you understand it well enough to hold that opinion strongly. Holding strong opinions on things you don't understand that well seems…

There are people for whom Ego and social status are more important than life itself. They, like you, and the OP who stated effectively "I can't converse with people who have strongly held opinions", are usually people with such little confidence that the only thing they have going for them is the hope that a nice suit and not rocking the boat will get them through life comfortably. There are people who are there to a…

[deleted]

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#142

Post by sqeaky » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 9:47 PM UTC

imagist wrote: post #115

chucksmash wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Espousing nuanced opinions and making effective arguments are often at odds though. It's very easy for people to lose the thread of an argument if it is chock full of footnotes. I try to aim for "strong opinions, weakly held" - present a specific, actionable and strong position but be open to changing it if a better argument is made.

There's a parable of a guy who lost his keys in the park at night. Upon realizing he lost his keys, he begins to look for the keys in the street near a street lamp. When his friend asks why he's looking for his keys in the street instead of in the park where he lost them, the guy responds that the light is better in the street. It's true that espousing nuanced opinions and making effective arguments are often at odds…

Ideas are unlike keys in that the details can be glossed over sometimes and you might still go in the right direction.

In an argument about climate change with a denier I might say "Glaciers are shrinking" and until they bring up the the Tibetan glacier is growing I can be content with my intellectual honesty that all other glaciers are shrinking.

I agree with your notion of using details to garner supporters.

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#143

Post by sctb » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 9:57 PM UTC

TheBobinator wrote: post #117

twic wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people I look for are those that take strong stands but are willing and able to adjust and even quickly reverse those stances. Sometimes called "strong opinions, weakly held". I find this principle to be incoherent - if you understand something well enough to have a strong opinion, you understand it well enough to hold that opinion strongly. Holding strong opinions on things you don't understand that well seems…

There are people for whom Ego and social status are more important than life itself. They, like you, and the OP who stated effectively "I can't converse with people who have strongly held opinions", are usually people with such little confidence that the only thing they have going for them is the hope that a nice suit and not rocking the boat will get them through life comfortably. There are people who are there to a…

> Forgive my vitriol, but after seeing those people flush untold millions down the drain and hurt people and families countless times, they belong flipping burgers or in a mass grave.

We can't, unfortunately. Hacker News is a place for civil discussion; please don't post like this.

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#144

Post by z3t4 » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 9:59 PM UTC

Web URL's are seriously underrated ... You can not go back in time and change what you told someone ... But if you have a blog that has an URL, you can actually update the content.

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#145

Post by barrkel » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 10:11 PM UTC

schoen wrote: post #89

barrkel wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irregular nature of "to be" in English comes from it being a blend of three different roots with a somewhat similar division you're talking about (but certainly not as clear, division was more about tense than duration). The fallacy you're talking about I consider a specific instance of the labeling problem. If someone is marginally in a group and you apply the label of the group on the individual, suddenly it se…

One analysis of this is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_(fallacy) but there might also be other ways of thinking about it.

The example given in that shows it's not the same thing at all.

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#146

Post by madsbuch » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 10:34 PM UTC

We need to establish that all communication is the senders responsibility. In the case of CETA, bot parts are not senders. Only one part is. They have a clear obligations to let people know about updates and imprecision about their communications.

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#147

Post by snupples » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 10:50 PM UTC

hiou wrote: post #64

hellofunk wrote: post #51

I have realized over the years that it is wise to be naturally skeptical of any opinion that is strong, either positive or negative. People who have an appreciation for gray areas, even if they ultimately do have a preference, tend to be a lot more emotionally balanced than those who maintain a very strong stance on something. I have noticed this so consistently over the last 15 years that I now consider it a fundame…

I find that people who sit in the greys tend to be very worried about their public perception or have very little passion beyond maintaining personal comfort. The people I look for are those that take strong stands but are willing and able to adjust and even quickly reverse those stances. To me it's the difference between a leader and a worker bee.

Sure the leader may have a strong opinion. But most people do, and often about complete BS, which is particularly obvious during election season. So it means nothing. The more important differentiator is the leader is more persuasive in backing the opinion. The nuanced opinion/argument is often more difficult to make persuasive though.

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#148

Post by oxide » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 11:32 PM UTC

Animats wrote: post #136

oxide wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know arguing against a strongly held opinion usually results in the person with the strong opinion digging their heels in even deeper. At that point, things like reason kind of go by the wayside and don't have much effect. As a poor example, my mother has fully bought into a snake-oil scheme where they sell you concentrated hydrogen peroxide as a cure-all. She won't hear a word against it, she always brings th…

How concentrated? Concentrated hydrogen peroxide (> 90%) is a rocket fuel. Above 8% is considered somewhat hazardous. Above 28%, hazmat precautions (corrosive, burns skin). Above 35%, unstable. Above 50%, even large industrial users usually don't go.[1] [1] http://www.h2o2.com/technical-library/default.aspx?pid=76&

I'm not sure, I believe it's 35% or more. She once mentioned that "it's not the legit stuff unless you have to sign a hazardous materials sheet" or something to that affect.

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#149

Post by BeetleB » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 11:45 PM UTC

hiou wrote: post #64

hellofunk wrote: post #51

I have realized over the years that it is wise to be naturally skeptical of any opinion that is strong, either positive or negative. People who have an appreciation for gray areas, even if they ultimately do have a preference, tend to be a lot more emotionally balanced than those who maintain a very strong stance on something. I have noticed this so consistently over the last 15 years that I now consider it a fundame…

I find that people who sit in the greys tend to be very worried about their public perception or have very little passion beyond maintaining personal comfort. The people I look for are those that take strong stands but are willing and able to adjust and even quickly reverse those stances. To me it's the difference between a leader and a worker bee.

>I find that people who sit in the greys tend to be very worried about their public perception or have very little passion beyond maintaining personal comfort.

Or, you know, the issue is grey. Why take a strong stand when you have plenty of reasons not to?

The funny thing is that I find the opposite. I call it the "cowardice of taking a stand". Being a fence-sitter in this culture is fairly negatively perceived (except out of academia). As such, I notice people are very reluctant to state the nuances - they're afraid of being labeled a fence sitter. Cowards, in harsher words.

>The people I look for are those that take strong stands but are willing and able to adjust and even quickly reverse those stances.

The people I look for are those who ponder over, and see the flaws in their stands before becoming a strong proponent.

Wisdom is usually inversely proportional to posturing.

This is very reminiscent of: "Do you want a fantastic firefighter on your team, or one who prevents fires?" The firefighter is very noticeable because he keeps saving teams from crises. The one who prevents fires doesn't get noticed because there never was a fire. Poor managers reward firefighters.

I remember when I was interviewing for my last job, I would try to pose indirect questions to the potential manager to get an idea on whether they can handle uncertainty from their employees. If not, I would move on to the next interview. Managers who say stuff like "I never accept 'I don't know' for an answer" are to be avoided like the plague. They end up with a team of employees who are pretty adept at BS.

Society wants people who take strong stands, and your comment is a perfect example of it.

Re: Be careful about what you dislike

#150

Post by jessaustin » Sat, Nov 05, 2016, 11:48 PM UTC

hellofunk wrote: post #119

smallnamespace wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity." - Yeats

What an apropos quote! Never seen that one before, good to know it now.

My reading of the poem is somewhat at odds with the implication of that quote by itself. Overall Yeats seems to be lamenting a particular situation in which the best and worst have these qualities, rather than simply stating that they have these qualities in general.