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How to get the wine you really want

economist.com

141–150 of 164 posts

Re: How to get the wine you really want

#141
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMHO any wine that needs to "open up" is not as good as one that doesn't. Yikes. Gonna have to disagree with you on that. The effect of a wine being aerated/oxidized after being opened and/or decanted is obvious even to a casual wine drinker. > I now know plenty of wines that reliably taste great (to me) straight out of the gate and keep tasting great through the whole bottle even if I keep it for a couple of days…

I find it amazing that all restaurants open a fresh bottle of wine at your table, and never seem to offer a decanted bottle. If I trust you to make my food in secret, out of sight, I trust you to open my wine in secret, out of sight.

Better restaurants serving older vintages will definitely decant, though I agree it's rarer than it should be.

I've seen a few use those aerating pourers, which is better than nothing.

Re: How to get the wine you really want

#142
post #3

Twenty years ago I was a tea-totaller, but there was a group of people I wanted to hang out with who would get together to drink wine so I decided to try to develop a taste for it. I eventually got to be a pretty hard-core wine snob. My wife and I even ran a wine-tasting group for several years. Then one day we decided to start doing blind tastings, and we soon learned that there was very little correlation between w…

> There were twelve of us in the group and every single one rated the Silver Oak dead last, and the Barefoot either first or second. I've always been of the opinion that Barefoot punches above its price, so to speak.

And Silver Oak is literally and figuratively vanilla. Not a great California red, and particularly not at its price.

Re: How to get the wine you really want

#143
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't make myself clear. I don't deny that decanting and/or aerating will improve many (perhaps even most) reds. But in my experience, for my own personal tastes, any wine that requires this very rarely ends up tasting as good as one that doesn't. > Reading those two comments of yours makes me seriously doubt your ability to make observations that generalize to other people. Two responses: 1. What I've said here i…

I'm not sure blind tastings with relative newbies gives the best signal here. If you give someone cocktails for the first time they'll probably like screwdrivers the most; if you let kids choose between doritos and oysters they'll pick the doritos. After having had a lot of moderately expensive wine over the past few years, I'm sometimes surprised when I go back to a $5 bottle that I like. Usually if I think about it…

> I'm not sure blind tastings with relative newbies gives the best signal here.

Sure, that's why we repeat the experiment regularly (though less formally than we used to). In fact, we just did it a few weeks ago with a friend who is a really hard-core wine snob. He has a 10,000 bottle collection in off-site temperature controlled storage. And he's not just a rich asshole showing off his wealth. He's upper-middle class and really passionate and knowledgeable about wine, as is his wife. Both of them rated the Barefoot cab very highly. No Silver Oak in the lineup this time, but some very comparable bottles, like a Franciscan and a Veeder Reserve, alongside a few other varietals (we were actually trying to see if we could pick out varietals blind). The Barefoot didn't come out on top, but it made a very respectable showing. One of the things we rated the wines on was, "How much would you guess this wine sells for?" My friend gave the Barefoot a $50 rating, and his wife said $130.

Re: How to get the wine you really want

#144
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think that too, but it turns out that vodkas actually do have distinctive flavors, some of which are better than others (to me). I was skeptical until we tried it, and it turned out that my wife and I could both identify many high-end vodkas very reliably in blind tastings. Ciroc is particularly distinctive.

Vodka is almost universally manufactured from the same high-grade industrial ethanol, which is essentially pure. However, you are correct that some of them taste different! You might be disappointed, though, to discover that these flavors are often introduced as a small quantity of concentrates added to industrial ethanol during the bottling process. Not every brand has a subtle character modifier added to it but man…

Wow. Not that I doubt you, but is there any way to corroborate this story?

Re: How to get the wine you really want

#145
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think that too, but it turns out that vodkas actually do have distinctive flavors, some of which are better than others (to me). I was skeptical until we tried it, and it turned out that my wife and I could both identify many high-end vodkas very reliably in blind tastings. Ciroc is particularly distinctive.

Vodka is almost universally manufactured from the same high-grade industrial ethanol, which is essentially pure. However, you are correct that some of them taste different! You might be disappointed, though, to discover that these flavors are often introduced as a small quantity of concentrates added to industrial ethanol during the bottling process. Not every brand has a subtle character modifier added to it but man…

For vodka, this is why I seek out actual russian imports, and I have a strong preference for potato distilled vodka. Unfortunately, finding these are few and far between, so grain it is. Still, when that's the case, I go for cheap vodka, and there's quite a strong difference there too. I'm talking 750ml for 7-8 dollars, some is just undrinkable, others are smoother than smirnoff (also not high end, just comparing to a well known, marketed as highish end).

Re: How to get the wine you really want

#146
post #47
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, absolutely. Since the infamous cab tasting we've done blind tastings of spirits with similar results. Our favorite vodka, for example, turns out to be Seagrams Extra Smooth, which is about half the price of a "high end" vodka. Unfortunately, it doesn't always turn out that way. My favorite scotch turns out to be Lagavulin or Laphroaig -- I really like the smokey flavor of Islay malts -- both of which are rather…

Personally, I find that whiskey, beer, tequila and mescal are the only alcohol products where price really does line up with quality.

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Re: How to get the wine you really want

#147
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure blind tastings with relative newbies gives the best signal here. If you give someone cocktails for the first time they'll probably like screwdrivers the most; if you let kids choose between doritos and oysters they'll pick the doritos. After having had a lot of moderately expensive wine over the past few years, I'm sometimes surprised when I go back to a $5 bottle that I like. Usually if I think about it…

> I'm not sure blind tastings with relative newbies gives the best signal here. Sure, that's why we repeat the experiment regularly (though less formally than we used to). In fact, we just did it a few weeks ago with a friend who is a really hard-core wine snob. He has a 10,000 bottle collection in off-site temperature controlled storage. And he's not just a rich asshole showing off his wealth. He's upper-middle clas…

Cool, I'll have to give this a try sometime. I've only tasted one wine that retails for over $100/bottle, so I'd be hard pressed to guess that any wine I'm trying costs that much!

I'm curious how the other varietals did. Cabs have so many flavors going on that it might be easier for cheaper wines to "hide behind" oak and alcohol. (Relatedly, the general wisdom for homebrewers is that Budweiser-style beers are much harder to emulate at home than IPAs, because any bad flavors in a light beer will stick out much more than a flavorful ale.) I've heard some wine people talk about how hard it is to find "good" Pinot Noirs for under $30, presumably because that grape has a bit more nuance and it's hard for (at least the snobby) people to find cheaper bottles that don't have sharp edges.

I'd certainly encourage people to try natural wines if they do a tasting. They're on the cheaper end of the good wine spectrum, don't need aging, and almost universally taste better than the median wine at 2x the price. Something like Raisins Gaulois is a good starting point.

Re: How to get the wine you really want

#148

> Instead of sampling different regions, grape varieties and vintages, they tend to order the same plonk every time they go out. Of course they do! The problem with wine is that the user experience of selecting one is shitty . If you study how users work, to get them to explore, you need a couple of things: 1. They need signals and affordances to give them hints as to which new actions are most likely to be what they…

> "If I like a glass, did I really like it, or did I just like the experience? Or did I feel pressured to like it? Or did the high price tag convince me I should have liked it and if I didn't I just don't have a refined enough palate? Should I stick with it to see if I acquire a taste and understand what all the fuss is about?"

You're not asking "Did I really like it". You already answered that, there is no 'true' liking. You're asking "Would I have liked another one better, all other things being equal?"

Re: How to get the wine you really want

#150
I'm looking at a set of areas in which information acquisition is difficult, and in which choices or decisions have very strongly social implications. These are quite frequently areas in which choice is very strongly ruled by fads or fashions -- strong and often rapid shifts in preferences, but without a long-term persistence -- a winner in any one period will be likely to revert to mean in another (though other influences may sway this).

The areas I've identified:

1. Clothing and fashion -- the practical reasons for distinctions are few, and often counter the popular choices. But these have a very high signalling rate for social status and alignment.

2. Management practices. Here, the problem is that determining actual quality is quite expensive, most especially in time (results may take years, and there's a high noise element to measurement). At the same time, adoption signals group allegiance and has strong carry-on effects with in a market (consulting services, training, education, organisational systems, etc.).

3. Programming languages, tools, operating systems, editors. As with management tools, measurement is hard and takes a long time. At the same time, there are network and lock-in effects which can develop, as well as organisational and market-signalling effects.

4. Food and diets. "Fad diet" is a well-developed concept, going back to the 1960s. The concept of food as a social identifier is much, much older, and can be an element in keeping social groups separate or allowing for their integration. The segregation of Chinese and Muslim populations in Indonesia, for example, derives in part from the affinity for pork by the first and absolute aversion by the second group. That's contrasted to the situation in Thailand, where the Buddhist indigenous population doesn't have a pork aversion and mixes far more freely with the Chinese immigrant elite (from Amy Chua, Harvard scholar and author).

5. Pop music. Beyond a certain base musicality, hit tunes in the 1940s - 2000s were largely a result of both highly focused marketing and some degree of organic development. Experiments with "artificial" hits (within selected group populations) has seen different choices evolve within different groups, from the same base set of songs. Again, music is very highly associated with social identity.

6. Wine. Fads emerge here because it seems so difficult to objectively identify and communicate distinguishing characteristics among different wines. The market offerings are huge, and quite confusing, with information aquisition by individuals difficult and expensive. Choices are very strongly influenced by advertising, marketing, and chance exposure.

There are numerous other goods or behaviours which could be treated similarly. Sports choices, physical fitness training modalities, books (like wine: expensive to judge), etc., etc.

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