Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is not your business to decide what other people should do with their lives. Go live in North Korea or Venezuela if you desire having a dear leader who tells you what you should do with your life and leave us alone.
As If in other countries they don't tell you what you should do with your life.
Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
231–240 of 259 posts
Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
#232Earlier quoted context omitted.
Keep in mind that the majority of tobacco deaths aren't cancer related.
Heart disease?
There's a good table of this about halfway down the page.
Looks like cancer is the single largest cause, accounting for about 2/5ths of the deaths.
Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless you are also a cigarette smoker as well, and many of them do inhale cigars and pipes.
No need. Nicotine is absorbed by the soft tissues of the mouth. Inhaling prevents you from "correctly" smoking a pipe. Take a look at this (formatting mine): "The Breath Smoking Technique It requires a relaxed setting, preferably sedentary and a very slow and calm breathing pattern. The pipe bit is held to the lips continuously and all breathing is through the nose. Every 2nd or 3rd slow breath through the nose, a ti…
Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
Smokers were already and for a long time aware of the risks. They choose to take them. What could they possibly claim? That a product known for causing lung cancer caused lung cancer?
That's a good point, I am not a lawyer so I can't really comment. But perhaps there is a material difference between saying you developed a disease that could have been caused by smoking (as lung cancer occurs in non-smokers), and saying you were definitely harmed by smoking. Other avenues could be: - Smoking is also associated with other cancers, such as esophageal cancer and bladder cancer. Generally the warnings d…
I don't see how this research changes anything from a legal perspective. We already knew smoking causes genetic mutations, but we also know people who've never been exposed to tobacco can develop lung cancer.
Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
#235Earlier quoted context omitted.
No need. Nicotine is absorbed by the soft tissues of the mouth. Inhaling prevents you from "correctly" smoking a pipe. Take a look at this (formatting mine): "The Breath Smoking Technique It requires a relaxed setting, preferably sedentary and a very slow and calm breathing pattern. The pipe bit is held to the lips continuously and all breathing is through the nose. Every 2nd or 3rd slow breath through the nose, a ti…
I know all this. I smoke cigars the right way. I also know cigarette smokers that cannot help themselves when smoking cigars. They inhale.
Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
#236How addictive is tobacco/smoking as compared to Opiates/Heroin?
Cigarettes, on the other hand, I've smoked a couple of times (1 or 2 cigarettes each time), and every time there's been this thought at the back of my head "I should get some cigarettes" for most of the following day. It's obviously not addiction and easy enough to ignore, but it's definitely a noticeable effect. Interestingly two lengthy (4 hour plus) shisha sessions didn't have the same effect (was a little light-headed and felt like I'd had about 50 cups of coffee, but no effects or cravings the following day).
Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
OP's comment was succinct and digestible by a non-technical audience with basic biological knowledge. If he had known of the model, surely he could have spared 2-3 sentences like OP.
OP's comment misinterprets a quote; it's great to bring up that model, but it's ludicrous to think that Mike Stratton does not know it in far greater detail than nonbel, as I would place Stratton as the world's authority on cancer mutations. He was the senior author on the authoritative survey of cancer mutational processes: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v500/n7463/full/nature1... In addition, nonbel's snarkin…
>"The prevalence of somatic mutations was highly variable between and within cancer classes, ranging from about 0.001 per megabase (Mb) to more than 400 per Mb (Fig. 1). Certain childhood cancers carried fewest mutations whereas cancers related to chronic mutagenic exposures such as lung (tobacco smoking) and malignant melanoma (exposure to ultraviolet light) exhibited the highest prevalence. This variation in mutation prevalence is attributable to differences between cancers in the duration of the cellular lineage between the fertilized egg and the sequenced cancer cell and/or to differences in somatic mutation rates during the whole or parts of that cellular lineage1."
And that they believe these mutations are accumulating at a relatively constant rate over time:
>"The mutations in a cancer genome may be acquired at any stage in the cellular lineage from the fertilized egg to the sequenced cancer cell. The correlation with age of diagnosis is consistent with the hypothesis that a substantial proportion of signature 1A/B mutations in cancer genomes have been acquired over the lifetime of the cancer patient, at a relatively constant rate that is similar in different people, probably in normal somatic tissue"
So now let's implement their model with the required assumptions:
Define the probability a mutation occurs during a given cell division as p.
Define the probability does not occur during a given cell division as q = 1-p.
Define the number of accumulated mutations required for carcinogenesis as n.
Define the number of cell divisions that have passed since the zygote as d.
Define the number of cell lineages in the tissue as Ncell.
Define the proportion of cancer cells that go on to form detectable tumors as C.
Assume the mutations can only occur once per cell.
Assume the mutations are occurring at the same rate (ie p1 = p2 = ... = pn).
The probability a mutation does not occur during division 1, or division 2, ... or division d would then be given by q^d (since p is constant we simply multiply the probabilities as for independent events).The probability the mutation did occur at some point up to time d must then be given by 1-q^d. And for the n required mutations we would get
(1-q^d)^n.
We just derived the CDF of the geometric distribution, extended to allow for multiple parallel events. This is the cumulative probability of a cell lineage turning cancerous according to the mental model they describe in the paper, which is pretty much Armitage-Doll without mentioning the name.To get the probability of a cell lineage turning cancerous at a given age (ie the pdf of this distribution) we calculate the first derivative of that function (warning: this is a continuous approximation of a discrete process):
-n*q^d*log(q)*(1 - q^d)^(n-1)
The expected number of cases per person after d divisions (division-specific incidence rate) would then be C*Ncell*-n*q^d*log(q)*(1 - q^d)^(n-1)
You can see that only the height of the curve is affected by C and Ncell, the shape is independent of those factors. In the (non-simplified) Armitage-Doll model the shape of the curve depends only on the mutation rate and number of required mutations.In that paper, they report seeing a range of roughly 10^-9 to 10^-4 cancer-specific mutations per bp in already detected tumors. If those arose after 10 divisions, the mutation rate would be 10^-10 to 10^-5 mutations/bp/division, etc. So we can see those values are empirically determined upper bounds on the mutation rates. So lets use the higher of the two as our value of p. Let us also assume only n = 2 mutations are need accumulate to result in a detectable tumor. Using R to make the upper plot:
p = 10^-4; q = 1-p; n = 2; d = 1:20000
plot(d, -n*q^d*log(q)*(1 - q^d)^(n-1), type = "l",
xlab = "Divisions since Zygote", ylab = "Pr(a Cell Lineage Will Turn Cancerous)")
abline(v = log(1/n, base = q))
https://s14.postimg.org/p6wncjv9d/melan.jpgActually, by setting the second derivative of that CDF to zero, we can see that the Armitage-Doll model predicts a peak in age-specific incidence at log(1/n, base = q) divisions (vertical line on the upper plot). That 10^-4 value comes from Melanoma, so let us also look at the age-specific incidence for that cancer (lower plot). There we see the peak incidence occurs at age ~age 90. So according to their model, the skin cells that are causing melanoma must be ~7k divisions separated from the zygote, corresponding to an average of ~78 divisions each year, or every ~5 days. Is that what happens?
Remember, we used a real upper, upper bound here on the mutation rate from their data, and only 2 required accumulated mutations. Even then we are getting into cells that are 78 generations separated from the zygote before being cancerous. What you will find is that the division rates required to fit what people really suggest (eg p=10^-7 and n=3) are insane according to the accepted model. If they have a different model than that, why do they not write it down and compare to epidemiological data?
Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
#238Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
Red meat doesn't cause high cholesterol? Huh? No offense, but unless you post some really reputable source, I'm gonna trust my cardiologist over some guy on the internet.
I would look into Ancel Keys and the diet heart hypothesis. This idea isn't, and never was grounded in evidence. It's based on very poor science done in the 20th century. The old guard of doctors and health officials will be looked at in the same way we look at geocentrists now. They hold a lot of the blame for the current obesity crisis we have.
Re: Smoking “causes hundreds of DNA changes”
#240Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think that in all other areas it's been on the manufacturer of products to make them safer over time (cars, children's toys, cosmetics etc.) so shouldn't the tobacco companies be trying to make their product safer?
Not all other areas. Some products are inherently unsafe, and that is precisely what the costumers want. Alcoholic beverages are unsafe, even lethal if you drink too much. They could be made safer by removing the alcohol, but that is not what most people want. The same applies to fast food and sugary drinks: could be made much safer, but people want a certain flavor at a certain price (and most know it's not healthy)…
Possible to improve? Yes, perhaps significantly. Economically and politically feasible? Maybe not so much.